Listen to RM306: Putting the Jack Back in the Box After a Criminal Conviction
https://www.registrymatters.co/podcast/rm306-putting-the-jack-back-in-the-box-after-a-criminal-conviction/
Announcer 00:00
Registry Matters is an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are those of the host and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have problems with these thoughts, F Y P.
Andy 00:19
Recording live from FYP Studios east and west, transmitting across the internet, this is episode – this one is actually 306. I said 306 last time, so this one is actually the 306. How are you this evening, Larry? Anything exciting? Oh, it’s probably hot as hell over there, isn’t it?
Larry 00:34
It is indeed. And I just hit the start button after you started speaking, so I hope that you didn’t miss any important stuff.
Andy 00:41
I think it’ll be fine. I’m not making the backup to the backup to the backup. So hopefully everything works out. If not, well, we’ll figure it out. And Chance, West Coast? How’s it going?
Chance 00:51
Cool as can be. Cool as can be.
Andy 00:55
Just a nice, comfy 75 degrees as always?
Chance 00:58
Maybe even – not even 75. Maybe just 70?
Andy 01:06
(laughs) Larry, is it 70 there?
Larry 01:08
Uh, 99 last time I checked.
Chance 01:10
Oooh. Ooh.
Andy 01:14
(laughs) All right, well, make sure that you press Like, Subscribe and all that stuff so that Larry can have an air conditioner. You don’t have an air conditioner in there?
Larry 01:22
Oh, we do. It’s working this year, remember? They replaced it last summer.
Andy 01:26
Oh! Then why are you complaining about doing the podcast in the summertime, if you have AC this time?
Larry 01:32
Because I have to get to the office, and it’s 105 to get here.
Andy 01:37
Is it 105 in your car with air conditioning?
Larry 01:40
For part of the way! I park out in the driveway, and the car is blazing hot.
Chance 01:45
Wow.
Andy 01:46
You don’t have a remote starter to fire the thing up and turn on the AC?
Larry 01:50
You know I can’t afford such luxuries as that on the salary I get paid! (Chance chuckles)
Andy 01:55
I see. All right, well, okay. Anyway, so press Like, Subscribe and thumbs-up and all that good stuff. And then what else? Yeah, make sure that you go over to Patreon and support us for as little as a dollar a month, that would be fantastic. We even got a new patron tonight, we got one during the week, and I’ll announce this all at the end of the show. And then you can get on Discord and listen to us record live and whatnot. So! Larry, if you’d be so kind, what are we doing this evening?
Larry 02:21
Well, we don’t have any cases to talk about, so… But we do have some good content. I was going to talk about a complaint filed by the ACLU, I think in New York, regarding proximity restrictions, but I just didn’t have the energy. But tonight we have some listener questions to go over. One of them is from an attorney who’s married to a PFR. Another is about getting off the registry in Kansas, and this is from a person who was convicted in Missouri. And we have some articles about the power of false accusations, and we have The California Corner, with Chance Oberstien.
Andy 02:59
It almost sounds like we need to, like, have, like, a ding-ding-ding-ding-ding. California Corner! over on this side of the ring, because he’s gonna go duke it out and fight it out. That’s what it sounds like to me.
Larry 03:08
I think that’s what we need, to have some kind of theme music for The California Corner. Something that sounds …all spooky.
Chance 03:16
Yeah, that would be great. Perfect!
Andy 03:20
Well, then, shall we start with the federal supervised release?
Larry 03:24
Let’s do it.
Andy 03:25
All right. Well this, let’s see here, so, “Good evening, Andy and Larry,” – would you set this up real quick before I do this? Or is it set up here in the script?
Larry 03:32
It’s set up. You had submitted it to me from the person, and I contacted the person, yes.
Andy 03:39
Gotcha. Okay. So, um, “Good evening, Andy and Larry. I spoke with Andy on NARSOL Connections” (Side Note: Make sure you go over to NARSOL.org and go find NARSOL Connections. It’s a social media platform that’s very friendly to PFRs) “…over on the NARSOL Connections group. And he suggested that I speak to Larry.”
Andy 04:01
“I am a criminal defense attorney. My husband is a PFR on Federal Lifetime Supervision. He is currently residing at the federal halfway house here in Vegas, pending his revocation hearing. His PO is alleging SEVEN violations. And his revocation hearing is Tuesday.” — and this is Tuesday, a couple of days ago — “June 4. And he suggested that Larry may be able to assist with legal arguments, etc.” Now, not acting as an attorney, but acting as a, uh, “strategy partner”, right?
Larry 04:35
Right.
Andy 04:38
And, uh, so I understand that you did contact her, and you had a brief conversation, correct?
Larry 04:44
Uh, two hours.
Andy 04:45
That’s pretty brief for you!
Larry 04:48
Indeed.
Andy 04:49
What happened when you talked to her?
Larry 04:51
Well, I did indeed contact her, and she is amazing, for sure. She’s worked tirelessly on this case, and I’m disappointed that we weren’t able to do more for the situation.
Andy 05:07
Did she say seven violations??
Larry 05:11
Yes, she did. And I do not recall all seven, but most of them seemed rather weak. The strongest of the alleged violations is that he had accessed some naughty adult pictures on Instagram, and they offered for him to admit all seven violations and argue for credit time served already in the halfway house, pending the resolution at the PV hearing. So, as a condition for his release on the PV, he was placed in a halfway house, and was no longer allowed to live with her. And in my opinion, she properly advised her husband to reject that offer. There was no reason to admit to all seven violations. One of the alleged violations was that he was living at an address that was too close to a park. And the problem is, that address had been approved by the previous probation officer.
Andy 06:05
Let me ask you, though, about… something like that. Do you get grandfathered? Because the previous one said okay, and now this one says no? Do you have any grounds to stand on with something like that?
Larry 06:17
In my opinion, he probably would have. But the probation service notoriously changes the story, and their story, now, was that he was given “conditional permission, provided that he didn’t violate a single condition of supervised release.” And they’re saying that, therefore, that “conditional permission” was being withdrawn.
Andy 06:45
And you mentioned “Instagram pictures.” I’m not really, like, a social media person, but it’s really hard – at least my understanding from everything that I’ve listened to, tech podcasts, all over the place – like, you can’t find nudity in these places. So how did they catch him for having nudity on Instagram?
Larry 07:07
Well, I thought the same thing because I’ve been on Instagram. But unfortunately, they stretched the definition a bit. They claimed that on Instagram, the pictures contained certain body parts that were blurred, but you could still make out it was the whatever, and the whatever, because it wasn’t completely blurred. And therefore, it meets the definition of pornography because the statute, 18 United States code, 2256, subsection two, states that he specifically cannot “view or possess images of”… and then there’s this list of everything in that statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2256(2). Chance, do you want to give those, uh, those things that you cannot, uh…?
Chance 08:00
Are you embarrassed, Larry? (laughs) Okay, I’ll do it.
Andy 08:03
(laughs) I just saw a bus coming, and he just decided to kick you into the street.
Chance 08:07
You know what? I have no problem. I… I will say this, okay?
Chance 08:13
The statute states that he specifically cannot view or possess images of, in sub (A), “Except as provided in sub paragraph (B), ‘sexually explicit conduct’ means actual or simulated (i) sexual intercourse, including genital-to-genital, oral-to-genital, anal-to-genital, oral-to-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; (ii) bestiality, (iii) masturbation, (iv) sadistic or masochistic abuse; or (v) lascivious exhibition of the anus, genitals, or public areas of any person.” How’s that?
Andy 08:49
Well, what is a “public area” of a person? Is this like, you can go to Walmart and find the “public area” of a person? – Never mind! Sorry, there’s no L in there. It’s “or pubic areas of any person.” Never mind. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. That’s totally my bad.
Chance 09:05
Did I pass the audition?
Andy 09:08
You did very well.
Chance 09:09
Okay.
Larry 09:09
What confuses me about this statute, this 18 U.S.C. § 2256, is this appears to be intended to prevent the production of child pornography. And, I don’t know how this becomes a condition of your supervision. Perhaps it’s in the “behavioral contract”, which we’re going to get to a little bit later, but this seems to be quite a stretch, if you’re saying that there was blurred out images where you could have, if you studied it strongly enough, you could imagine what was underneath the blurry part because it wasn’t completely blurred out, but yet it was an adult. And this statute is designed to protect children and minors. I don’t understand how this was allowed to stand, but we’re going to have her on at some point, and we’ll hopefully get more into this.
Andy 10:03
That seems super-weird. Yeah. So do you think it’ll be next week? or… because otherwise it’ll be like, after the conference, and then who knows what’s happening after that.
Larry 10:16
I don’t know. She was having to, uh, decompress after the three-day hearing. And I told her, “In my twenty-two years of Unauthorized Practice of Law, we’ve never been allowed three days on a probation violation, to put on an evidentiary hearing.” But I talked to Chance and he said, “Nope! Happens all the time!” But I’ve never been in one where it went on for three days. But anyway, he was sentenced to three months in jail, followed by three more months in the halfway house. In addition, he’s no longer permitted to live in the house that they jointly own.
Andy 10:53
This is really bothersome. Like, seriously, so I’m just going to make the assertion that YouTube has a similar content policy to Facebook and Instagram (and I could have that completely wrong!) But you can search hard on YouTube to find anything that has any naughty stuff, and you can’t find anything “naughty.” You’d find, incredibly …close to? But not, to my knowledge, can you find anything, where anything is “shown.”
Larry 11:22
Well, that was my thing, and I don’t think that it’s fair. Not only is it not fair, it’s not constitutional, in my view, to tell a human being that you cannot have sexual urges. And for them to say that he cannot look at attractive women (or guys, or whatever he’s looking at on Instagram) and use those photos as a stimulation, as a part of their behavioral contract. I think that’s going too far. I thought we had talked about this on an episode where there was a case decided that addressed that particular point, that you cannot tell a person not to have any sexual urges, and not to look at anything stimulating. Neither of us were able to find it (in our vast trove of archives). But I could have sworn we’ve talked about it. Do you remember a case where we might have talked about that? Because I thought we had talked about such a case.
Andy 12:18
I don’t recall offhand. I do have a question for either of you two: Someone in chat said, “Does that mean just seeing a shirtless man playing basketball meets the definition?” …if that would be the thing that would be, you know, so-inclined for you?
Larry 12:37
Interesting question.
Chance 12:38
Not in my opinion, no.
Larry 12:41
Interesting question, though! If a shirtless man – I mean, there are nipples on males, as far as I know, right?
Andy 12:48
I’ve heard so.
Larry 12:50
They may not produce the same outcome, but they’re there. So what if the probation service takes the position that that is nudity, or provocative, right?
Andy 12:59
Yep.
Larry 13:00
I mean, this is a slippery slope that has no end to it. And to think a federal judge spent the better part of three days — was not the complete three days, but they were in hearing for three days — dealing with Instagram pictures with all the so-called “bad crimes” that are going on out there, all for a person who’s happily married and (hopefully) being a productive citizen. That, now, we’ve thrown him back in the clink, to spend money on him, is just mind boggling!
Chance 13:34
That is mind boggling. If you’re going to invite Anya on, I have a parallel case I’ve just handled in federal court, very similar. I don’t really know the facts of this, but it’s very similar. I’d like to be able to do some cross-comparisons when she does come on.
Larry 13:52
Well, if we can’t get her this coming week, we will get her on at some point, but she said that she was somewhat devastated by the outcome. And I can understand that, because you work so hard to try to reintegrate, and all of a sudden this stuff comes along, and it’s all taken away. And you got a six-month setback. Now you gotta sell the house. And it’s a good time to sell, but it’s not such a good time to buy.
Andy 14:19
One other point that just got brought up, “and sentencing him to banishment from his home with his wife, wtf is that?” And, I mean, I had something in my head I wanted to bring up after that, but isn’t that pretty harsh, just for, like a PV violation?
Larry 14:38
Well, I don’t think it’s all that harsh, per se, for a probation violation. But you look at the totality of this circumstance, the guy’s masturbating to scantily clad women. That’s a healthy thing to do!
Andy 14:54
You would think: if he’s releasing the demons, then he would not be out… “preying on” whatever they’re afraid of him praying upon.
Larry 15:02
You would think so. But it’s an example of our over-resourced law enforcement apparatus. If they –
Andy 15:10
Oh, there you go again, “defunding the police.”
Larry 15:12
If the probation service didn’t have the ability to bring such cases because they had heavier case loads that they had to monitor, we wouldn’t be facing this. But anytime you start talking about trying to reduce the amount of resources that the law enforcement “regime” has, the conservatives go ballistic. Now, I’m hoping that this thing with Trump, if they’re intellectually honest, they will start to say, “Well, maybe those pointy-heads have a point. Because all the effort that’s been put into convicting him is only because they have the resources to do it.” Not only because, but partly because of that. I mean, they’ve got cases going from coast to coast. And, if you don’t give them the resources, they’ll have to make difficult choices. And this is just nonsensical, in my view, that we’re spending this kind of money on Instagram pictures. Really?
Andy 16:03
Yeah. I don’t get it, really, at all. All right, moving along then?
Larry 16:07
Yes. Well, amazingly, there won’t be anybody on the conservative side of the aisle that will criticize this type of a waste of resources. You won’t hear anything about that. And that’s the sad thing about it, because we need to be dealing with the systemic problem that needs to be fixed, rather than making it a personal thing about one individual. The system is overkill, across the board.
Chance 16:33
Yeah I would say “splitting hairs” in this case, but I neglect to use that analogy. Let’s move on. (Andy & Larry laugh)
Andy 16:41
All right. Well, this is a question from Matthew, “Here’s my situation: I was charged with sexual abuse, a Class C felony in Missouri, and I received a three year sentence. I served all three years from 2003 to 2006. At the time, I was 23 years old in 2001, and the victim was 24 years old. The reason I am reaching out is that, due to a disagreement with my therapist, I was kicked out of the program about six months before my scheduled release date. Now, approaching 50, with no other felonies, I even moved from that area to another state.”
Andy 17:18
“However, I’m required to go back for court proceedings. What are my chances of being removed from the registry? Also, do you know any good lawyers who could assist me? Lastly, what is your best advice to improve my chances of being removed from the registry? Thank you for your time and support. FYP” Thank you for putting the “FYP” on there!
Larry 17:38
So, I’ve actually communicated with this person on several email exchanges, and so I’m going to read some of the stuff I’ve written to him. I said, “I’m having difficulty connecting the dots. You do not have to go back to Missouri to get off another state’s registry. In fact, Missouri cannot remove you from another state’s registry. Where are you currently located? That’s the state that can remove you. Missouri cannot.” And then Matthew wrote back, and he said, “Okay, I get what you’re saying. I am in Kansas now, but I got my case in Missouri, and I know I have to go back, even though I hate every part of Missouri. My question was, did Kansas fix the way to get off the registry? And, seeing if I didn’t finish the program, should I even try?”
Larry 18:16
So he’s saying that, “Despite what you told me, I have to go back to Missouri to get off the registry. And should I even try?” And again, I responded, “In my opinion, you should not try to get off the Missouri registry, unless you live there. Kansas is not bound by anything that is done in Missouri, in terms of registry removal. Assuming Missouri does grant your termination, that is not binding on Kansas. Kansas will have to grant you termination from their registration obligations. Does that make sense? Have you contacted an attorney in Kansas?” So, then he responded again. You want to read that? I’m exhausted, Andy.
Andy 19:04
Oh, I’ll read it, yeah. You read three sentences and you’re exhausted. All right, I’ll read it, “I apologize for not addressing your previous question. There wasn’t one to begin with. I’ve consistently adhered to the rules. After my three-year stint at MODOC in Missouri, I relocated to Kansas. It’s crucial to highlight that nearly twenty years have passed without any charges or incidents. Additionally, now at 46 years old, I simply want this turmoil to cease. I’m weary of incessantly fretting over trivial matters, such as whether I have to pay the $20 to register, or if there is a new investigation looming over me. I feel I’m beyond this.”
Andy 19:45
I mean, shoot, it’s been twenty-something years for him. “The only crime I’ve ever been involved with dates back to the charge I received in 2003.” I would tell you, Larry, I get his point. Can he file his removal petition in Missouri to get off the registry? Why? – Why! – as always, Larry, are you Mr. Doom and Gloom, and why do you have to make this so complicated?
Larry 20:05
Well, the courts are open and they will generally accept filings, so he can certainly probably file in Missouri, if that’s his wish. (Andy laughs) But I do not understand how Missouri can remove him from another state’s registry!
Andy 20:19
Are you saying that there are no circumstances where the state of conviction cannot impact the removal from registration?
Larry 20:27
No, I’m not saying that. There could be some circumstances where that could occur. For example, if a person’s conviction was overturned. That would likely be sufficient to end the registration obligation in another state. Another situation might be if a person’s conviction was not covered by the other state, except for a “catch all” provision that requires registration simply because you’re required to register any state conviction. Hypothetically, a person that was under that catch-all provision might be able to have their registration terminated, if the state of conviction ended the person’s obligation to register. But those are nuances. Generally speaking, one state can’t remove you from another state’s registration.
Andy 21:07
And what about Matthew filing for removal in Kansas? What would be, would that be an option for him?
Audio Clip 21:15
(laugh track)
Larry 21:21
(laughs) Nope! It appears that Kansas does not offer a pathway off the registry. According to the ACLU of Kansas, “For several years, Kansas lawmakers have pondered changes to make the state’s offender registry less restrictive. During the ’20 and ’21 legislative sessions, lawmakers proposed reducing penalties for failing to register, and changing some of the violent and drug-offense registration requirements. They also considered adding an avenue for registrants to petition for removal through an application process. The 2021 bill even had bipartisan support — including from law enforcement! — but it died in committee. And, most recently, in the fall of 2021, The Kansas Criminal Justice Reform Commission Subcommittee on Proportionality of Sentencing considered whether drug offenders’ information on the same public registry as PFRs should be made only available to law enforcement. The Subcommittee also considered potential changes to reduce the penalty for failing to register.” Nothing has passed so far, as best I can tell from my limited research.
Andy 22:30
All right, and I see that they also then stated, “Some legislators have wondered openly if the KORA (the Kansas Offender Registration Act) goes too far. It does. However, they have failed to act on their concerns. Meanwhile, the number of Kansans included in the registry has ballooned to nearly 1% of the state’s total population.” What do you think it will take to get change?
Larry 22:54
Well, it would take electing different people to the Kansas General Assembly and possibly to the Governor’s Office. Because if you get past the General Assembly, you gotta get past the governor.
Andy 23:03
Now do any of you care — and, anybody in the audience, does anybody care — what the ACLU has recommended for their changes?
Larry 23:09
Of course they do!
Andy 23:12
(laughs) All right, so here’s what they recommend:
- Strictly limiting the types of offenses for which registration is required under the Act.
- Reducing the length of time that people must register.
- Providing a way for all affected individuals to petition for early removal from the registry.
- Drastically reducing the consequences for violations of the Act.
- Allowing for remote registration options and other mechanisms that will reduce the impact on registration on individuals’ daily lives.
To me, these don’t sound unreasonable, but do you think they will pass?
Larry 23:48
Uh, don’t know, but looking at the makeup of the Kansas Assembly, it does not look promising.
Andy 23:56
I’m assuming they’re not very pro-criminal-justice-reform, there?
Larry 24:00
Well, it’s funny because they could be. You know, they’re under conservative domination, and the conservatives don’t get vilified for being soft on crime. They don’t generally vilify themselves. And very few liberals vilify conservatives for being soft on crime. So they have the latitude to do it. They just don’t have the will, because they’re not hearing from the people of Kansas, that they want these changes, apparently. And folks, if you’re going to vote for these people, you’ve got to communicate to them what you want them to do! And they have to hear a groundswell of public support. Otherwise they’re not going to do anything.
Andy 24:31
Larry, I think the person that wrote this letter is in chat. I didn’t – Oh, hey, this is him! I had no idea. I don’t know who anybody is, in chat. Everyone uses some pseudonym. But the person we are speaking about is in chat. And he says, “So, pretty much, I have to move back to Missouri to get off the list.” But – you could still end up – wouldn’t you end up in the same situation, then? …of still being on the registry in Kansas, potentially?
Larry 24:55
Well, I don’t know if they keep people on, after they leave, but he wouldn’t have any forward obligations. You know, we had that debate about, years and years and years about, whether being on a website is the same as being required to register. And some people think it’s the same thing. I think it is not anything approximating the same thing. So if Kansas is one of those states that keep people on the list, he might find his image on the website, but he wouldn’t have any obligations or any consequences in terms of potential punishment for not complying.
Andy 25:22
And then is Missouri “pseudo-like” Florida, and leaves you on their website, infinity? Or is he still actually on the registry in Missouri?
Larry 25:33
Well I don’t know the answer to that. But Missouri does have a pathway off, I think. And that’s what he’s looking at. He wants to file in Missouri, but Missouri can’t help him. If I’m the responding party in Missouri, I’m going to say “He’s not registering because of us. He’s registering because of Kansas (because I don’t want to do any work, and neither does anybody else.)” So they’re going to try to extinguish the petition. And he may be able to bypass that, and claim that he has a viable need to have a decision from Missouri. Okay, he spends a whole bunch of money and time. He gets a decision in Missouri saying he’s no longer required to register. That didn’t do nothing for Kansas. So, he’s in the same position, only he’s broke-er!
Andy 26:16
(sighs) I don’t comprehend the whole Missouri part of the equation. If he doesn’t live there, then why would he have to go back to Missouri to get any relief?
Larry 26:25
Well, he doesn’t have to. He was under the mistaken impression that that was the only way off, because he doesn’t have a way off in Kansas. So, in his mind, he wants to go back and file the petition where they have a removal process. And he doesn’t connect the dots completely, that even if that were to succeed – I would do my best, if I were representing Missouri, to say “Don’t bother us with this. It’s not our problem.” but he believes that if he were to get it done, and get an order from Missouri — he believes he could go wave that around the country, apparently, and say, “I don’t have to register anymore.” But that’s just simply not the case.
Andy 27:00
Because Georgia would be a place where, if you move in, and you are registering somewhere else …then you have to register in Georgia. Whether you’re on supervision or not, if you are required to register somewhere else, then you register there. It’s not worded as, “if you have a conviction.” It’s worded “if you are registering somewhere else” (like Florida).
Larry 27:19
So, but in some instances, if that’s the only reason — like say, in Georgia, if you moved to Georgia and they didn’t cover your offense, but for the catch-all provision, and you were able to overturn that conviction, or get that conviction nullified — then Georgia (or whatever state) might be willing to take you off, if you’re only registering because of a catch-all provision. But that’s not the case. Most sex offenses translate to something, because they have loose enough language that says “substantially similar elements.” Very few states have the language we have in New Mexico, that says it has to be an “equivalent” offense. And I tell attorneys that don’t seem to understand the difference, “Substantially similar is not the same protection as equivalent. If you look at the dictionary definition, equivalent has different requirements than substantially similar.” Chance, would you agree or disagree with that?
Chance 28:13
I’d agree with that. Yeah, there is a distinction.
Larry 28:17
(laughs) So, if you were trying to make an argument, would you rather be fighting for someone who had the protection we have, that it has to be equivalent? Or would you rather be fighting where it says, “if the offense has substantially similar elements”? Which battle would you rather be in? I would rather be in the equivalent.
Chance 28:33
Well, certainly, certainly.
Larry 28:36
So, he may end up, if he files in Missouri, getting an order of removal, but that will be of no benefit for him outside of Missouri.
Andy 28:51
Very well.
Announcer 28:53
Are you a first time listener of Registry Matters? Well, then make us a part of your daily routine and subscribe today. Just search for “Registry Matters” through your favorite podcast app, hit the subscribe button, and you’re off to the races. You can now enjoy hours of sarcasm and snark from Andy and Larry on a weekly basis. Oh, and there’s some excellent information thrown in there, too. Subscribing also encourages others of You People to get on the bandwagon, and become regular Registry Matters listeners. So what are you waiting for? Subscribe to Register Matters right now. Help us keep fighting and continue to say F Y P.
Andy 29:41
I am going to move over to this. I’m going to play this in the background, Larry. Just the video will be going, but I’m going to follow the script because I didn’t have any time to make the clips. This is a story from ABC Channel 6 in Philadelphia, and it says, “We reported on this case a month ago, and tonight I spoke with the attorney who represents the man who was accused of attempted rape and kidnapping in this grocery store parking lot. That attorney tells me that the woman’s story ‘never added up’ and that an update in the case is ‘better late than never.’ Forty-one year-old Daniel Pierson is home with his family tonight, out of jail, after the Bucks County D.A. says he was wrongly accused of attempted rape and kidnapping.”
Andy 30:29
This is the woman who accused him of those crimes: Twenty year-old Anjela Urumova. “Police in Middletown Township said Urumova called them on the night of April 16th, claiming a man grabbed her in the parking lot of the Redners off Lincoln highway, and attempted to pull her pants down while he carried her, and pulled her back toward his truck. Urumova said she was able to break free, and then he drove away. Police used a license plate reader system that spotted a similar truck nearby, they tracked it to Pierson, and he was held at the Bucks County Correctional Facility on one million dollars of bail.” This is terrible! Well, I guess it would have been terrible if he’d actually done it, but that’s not what happened.
Larry 31:13
Yes. A new complaint now states that “Daniel Pierson was charged with multiple felony offenses and remained incarcerated for a total of 31 days before Urumova admitted to her lies.” The police and DA deserve credit for continuing their investigation. Normally, when they put a person in cuffs, it’s so easy just to say, “We got it.” and, you know, “Victims of sexual assault, any type of sexual offense, they don’t lie. They don’t create stories. If they say it, we don’t need any further investigation, because that’s just re-victimizing them.” Andy, I don’t know why you can’t understand that! (Andy laughs) But anyway, the police in that part of the country and the DA deserve credit for continuing the investigation. Because otherwise, this man would be still sitting in jail, and possibly facing a long term of incarceration.
Andy 32:11
The new complaint states that, “Shortly after his arrest, officials received information from Pierson’s family that warranted further investigation. So detectives reviewed surveillance video and found that at no point in the video did Pierson’s truck travel through any part of the path Urumova claimed the vehicle took. Urumova was also called to the DA’s office for questioning last Thursday, and because of more inconsistencies in her story, she was called back in on Friday. That’s when,” the complaint states, “Urumova admitted that she had lied about the entire incident, and that no assault occurred.” This is disgusting! Why would a person do such a thing?
Larry 32:48
Well, you know, I get that question all the time when I’m lobbying. People say, “Well, Larry, why would people make false accusations?” And I say, “Well, there’s a whole litany of reasons: They could do it because they don’t like a person, they could do it in custody battles, they want to discredit their spouse for custody reasons. They can just do it for outright meanness.” So I don’t have any way to explain why this woman, this twenty-year-old, did that. But, in her own words, she stated that, quote, she had seen Pierson in his truck before in the parking lot of her old job, and he was “quite creepy”.
Andy 33:25
Creepy! Creepy.
Larry 33:26
Yes, creepy. Now, that doesn’t seem like enough of a reason to accuse someone falsely. There’s never enough reason, but a person looking creepy? If we went around making up criminal accusations on people that look creepy, that’s all we’d be doing! All charges against Pierson have been dropped, and now Urumova is facing charges herself. She’s currently in jail, and due back in court sometime later this month. Can you finally admit that this is funny??
Andy 33:59
No, this is anything but funny! Like, I mean, how long did he spend? 30, 31 days in the lockup? That’s not funny.
Larry 34:07
But it’s funny that she’s in jail now, isn’t it?
Andy 34:10
I mean, I guess that would be …karma? But anyway, what do you think will likely happen to her?
Chance 34:19
Well, making false police reports is generally a criminal offense in most states, either a felony or misdemeanor, in this case, including Pennsylvania. Under 18 PA Consolidated Statutes section 4906 [18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 4906] makes it a misdemeanor to submit a false police report, a complaint, subject to fines and jail time. How long will she stay? Probably not long. A misdemeanor just, you know, doesn’t do it.
Andy 34:48
Doesn’t that even have a maximum of a year?
Chance 34:51
Well, misdemeanors are different, some are up to six months, some up to a year. But let’s just say that this is six months, tops, and she gets half-time, you know, three months.
Andy 35:07
And then we have, moving over to another similar story that comes out of Colorado where a woman made false accusations. She was sentenced to serve four years in prison. Now, is that appropriate punishment? Look, in my mind, if you have then falsely accused somebody and they spend… 31 days in the lockup, and like, four years? I don’t know that that’s enough time! Come on, man.
Larry 35:32
Well, it’s hard for me to say, but let me tell you a little bit about this. We’re not going to spend a lot of time on it, but what happened was that there was – this is in Colorado, in a suburb of Denver. I don’t remember the particular suburb, but the police chief and a city councilor had gotten in a public dispute about policy, which is quite common, and the city councilor chose to criticize the police chief. And this woman who worked for protective services in Colorado, for child protective services, and she says, “Well, I’ll just cook his little goose,” and she submitted a false report about the police chief. And it did not go well for her. She was sentenced to incarceration for that false police report.
Larry 36:31
Four years is an awful long time. I would have to know what any of her criminal history was like, and what type of diversion options might have been appropriate, but I’m not for extremely harsh sentencing. But, on the other hand, we need to send out some deterrents of causing false police reports to be made, and causing someone to be subject to this type of — I mean, it’s awful to be arrested! — Can you imagine the guy in Pennsylvania, what did everybody think about him? He was in jail, he was in danger of being killed, he probably lost his job, lost all of his friends, because they thought he was a rapist!
Larry 37:17
They showed his picture, of his truck and everything on TV, and then it turned out that it was all made up. How does he get justice? How does he get redemption? How does he fix his life? He’s got an arrest history. What is the opportunity for expungement in Pennsylvania? And even if he gets an expungement, the FBI never expunges anything, so it’s always lurking beneath the surface there, for criminal justice agencies to say, “Oh!” — if he were to have a minor arrest, say, moves around the country to Idaho, and he gets arrested for something. The first thing the pre-trial services is going to do when they run the background — “Oh! Well you were arrested in Pennsylvania in 2024 for rape and attempted kidnapping!” (or whatever) “Well, those were dismissed.” “Oh, but you were arrested for it.” I mean, that affects bail decisions, does it not, Chance?
Chance 37:57
Oh, it does! And that’s why it’s so important that, if there is a “factual innocence” aspect of any statute within that state, that you take advantage of that. Because otherwise it’s going to be exactly as you say.
Larry 38:10
So I’ve sat in what we call “felony first appearances,” I’ve sat through those many times, in our professional career here. And when they call a case to set conditions of release for a person who’s been arrested, the pre-trial services have done a background report, and all that is read by the prosecutor for the judge. And the judge listens to those previous arrests, any no-shows in court, any failures-to-appear, in determining what kind of conditions can be fashioned. And if this man has a sexual arrest on his record, and it cannot be removed, it’s going to be potentially a problem for him down the road. So there needs to be some kind of way that this woman is held accountable for that. It’s not funny at all.
Andy 39:04
Not funny, you said, “I think it’s funny.” Not funny!
Larry 39:07
Well, her being in jail is funny.
Andy 39:09
Not for her, either! She could die there as well. And I don’t think that what she did is deservant of the death penalty.
Larry 39:17
Well, he could have died a lot easier than she could have, for the type of allegations she put on him. He was much more in-danger than she is.
Andy 39:24
I won’t disagree with you, but that doesn’t mean that there’s not a riot that goes out, and all of a sudden that you end up with a shank in your gut.
Larry 39:32
So, not funny. All right. Not funny.
Chance 39:35
Yeah.
Andy 39:36
California Corner! Take it away, Mr. Chance, in that corner over there. Ding-ding-ding!
Chance 39:39
Okay. In The California Corner, we’re talking about Putting the Jack Back in the Box. As I listened to the questions and thought about this, it’s really relevant in terms of everyone, and for California, it’s really important. So putting the jack back in the box is really talking about how you get your life back together after conviction. And I’m going to put it in the context of, say, a conviction for a crime involving a sex allegation. So everybody knows this (in California, and I’m not sure about the rest of the world, but) there is no Department of Rehabilitation in California.
Chance 40:22
And by the way, gentlemen, if you want to jump in and ask a question, anytime, I’m always open for one. Okay?
Larry 40:29
I got a question for you right now. You said there’s no Department of Rehabilitation. I thought it was The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation!
Chance 40:37
Uh, heck, no! That doesn’t mean anything. As you know, theories of punishment change now and then. We have never been a state with rehabilitation as our main purpose. It’s punishment. And if I haven’t said it, again: it’s punishment, and I’ll say it a third time: It’s punishment! There is no Department of Rehabilitation (and the Department of Corrections is a misnomer), so that should clear up that little thing.
Chance 41:08
Now, to achieve rehabilitation for a criminal conviction in California, you must rehabilitate yourself. And a lot of folks will ask, and it’s important that they do, When does the process start? Because that is a very smart question. It has universal application, but let’s start at the pre-plea: What is pre-plea? This is what happens before you plead guilty or no contest. This is the time when you can show the court, and whomever else is interested (and hopefully the prosecutor is, if they’re willing to do justice in a case), you can show them that there’s a recognition of the issue. Now, how do you go about doing that, even if you don’t know what the issue is?
Chance 41:54
Well, one is: psychological services. Let’s take, for instance, getting a forensic evaluation and risk assessment. A forensic psychological evaluation plays a crucial role in the criminal justice system, by addressing important questions and providing valuable insights for legal proceedings. In the context of sex crimes, they can be used to assess criminal responsibility and evaluate risk for future dangerous behavior. This information may be crucial to the appropriate settlement or disposition of your case. And I say that, and I emphasize it: crucial. Also, sex therapy. Say you’re pending the disposition of your case, and you want to do something proactive that is going to help you down the line, including the possibility of a better disposition. Sex therapy, going to a therapist and talking about what the issue or behavior is.
Chance 42:53
The main objective is to help the individual subject of the therapy to avoid risky, aggressive, or reoffending behavior, high risk situations. And that sounds like a really good idea if you’re pending a case outcome. So it’s a good idea. Now, other things can be used as well to benefit you, like Sex Addicts Anonymous. Just like if it were Alcoholics Anonymous, a fellowship of individuals who share their experience, strength, and hope with each other, that they may solve their common problems and help others to recover, that’s a good place to be, pre-plea.
Chance 43:36
Now, let’s talk about Post-plea: Post-plea has to do a lot with probation. Now, there’s only really two things to know, and I don’t need to emphasize them, because I think everybody knows and understands them: Comply with all the terms and conditions of your probation. That’s easy. Maybe not easy to do, but easy to understand. And show good conduct while on probation. Which means: don’t violate, don’t pick up a new case, don’t do things like that, okay?
Chance 44:11
Post-probation: Now, if you finish with probation, and you were able to do these pre-plea things, and on probation, you were able to comply with all the terms and conditions of your probation, then we’re talking about what you do when probation either terminates or expires. Well, this is the most important thing I’m going to say tonight: Continue to work on the underlying issues that caused the behavior. It’s really, really important. And it is important because it will achieve your objectives down the line, in order to reintegrate, and to normalize, and stabilize your life in the future. For example, additional sex therapy or continuing fellowship in Sex Addicts Anonymous is really, really important. But other things are important as well. Things that we all know, like Employment, because work provides an opportunity to build friendships and connect with colleagues. Additionally, executing tasks you’re good at can stabilize your mood, especially if you’re prone to depression. And a lot of folks who have been convicted and have to register are prone to depression.
Chance 45:20
Education. The most important aspect of education is personal growth, which contributes to your discernment and maturity, which helps you avoid what you got caught up with to begin with. Social groups, and I think this is really important as well. It’s well established that people who feel socially isolated, or as though they don’t belong, have worse mental health than those who feel socially connected. So getting involved with groups, social groups like including close friends, religious congregations, health and wellness groups, volunteer networks, and human rights organizations, is all very, very, very helpful for your mental health. And it all helps you move along that rehabilitative trajectory.
Andy 46:11
Chance, I just want to chime in. Like, all of those, I don’t want to say all of those things are “restricted” for our people, but many of those things are restricted, or challenging, for many of Our People.
Chance 46:25
Correct.
Andy 46:28
And that just makes it incredibly hard. I mean, yes. Those are all great things that probably every therapist, treatment provider, any of those professions would recommend that you do. But, “Oh, I’m sorry, you can’t go…” you know, like the app Meetup, that just has the “volleyball pickup group” or cycling group, or the chess club, or whatever movie group. “Oh, I’m sorry, you can’t be on that app.” Well, like, what do you want me to do? “Sorry, you should have thought about that before you committed your crime.”
Chance 46:56
Yeah, that’s legitimate, that’s a legitimate comment. But, if you think about it, these social groups that I’ve mentioned are not all-inclusive. As a matter of fact, there’s a million things you can do, okay? And there’s a million places you can go, and you don’t need apps.
Andy 47:18
Agreed.
Chance 47:19
You know, what I’m saying to you, and what I’m saying to everyone, is: social groups are important. Find one you can belong to. And if that social group is like a therapeutic group, like Sex Addicts Anonymous, then stick with them. And if that group is another group like a church group, or another group like a human rights organization, or a resource group like this one, join it! Because all of it has meaning, and all of it is important.
Larry 47:54
So I would like to expand on the point Andy was making, that a lot of people are forbidden. Probation invokes this so-called “felon association” clause. And they say that you can’t do these things in these groups because “they’re felons.” Like, they won’t let them attend the NARSOL conference. “There are felons there.” They won’t let them attend things because there are felons there. And it’s like, really? I will guarantee you there’s hardly a church that you could go to, that has more than 100 members, that doesn’t have a felon in the congregation. So if you take that to a literal, extreme interpretation, you would never be able to associate with anyone, because in any group you associate with there are going to be felons. And I think that’s something for another conversation one of these days, about this over-interpretation of the “felon association” clause by supervising authorities.
Chance 48:54
Yeah, I think that’s legitimate, too, except for one thing. With probation, I don’t go into that, and I’ll tell you why. Because I’m so busy complying with all the terms and conditions, and showing good conduct, I might not have time to do exactly that. This part of what I’m talking about is post-probation, which means you’ve already finished with it. So, once you finished with it, that’s the time to really connect, because I understand exactly what you’re talking about, and it’s the most difficult thing to do. But if you asked me, “When does the process start? At pre-plea? At probation? At post-probation?” I’d say, if I want to get that answer right, “All of the above.“
Chance 49:38
And then, once I’ve engaged in those things, and it doesn’t have to be every single one, but a good many of them will help. I’ll show you how they work. How do I document my process? Before I do show you how they work, memorializing your efforts and progress is essential to meeting your legal objectives at a later stage of rehabilitation. Otherwise, what do you have to show for it? Like, you’d be the invisible man! Organize the following areas of documentation, and keep them in a safe place where they can be easily located: like psychological evaluations, risk assessments, progress reports about sex therapy and probation, self-help, additional therapy, fellowships, all that stuff. Keep a file. Keep it safe. Keep it so you know where to find it.
Chance 50:32
So this is how you use it: How do I make my rehabilitative efforts and progress work for me? Now, this is where you’re going with this. And where you’re going with this in California is right here, at Legal objectives: Termination of probation. Judges will consider granting your petition for early release from probation if you have met the following eligibility requirements:
- Fully paid all your court fines and restitution.
- Completed community service hours.
- Don’t have any new arrests or pending cases.
- Not on probation for another case.
- Completed at least half of your probation period.
- Successfully completed all obligations, such as court-ordered classes and counseling.
So look, if you meet these eligibility requirements, and they should sound familiar, since we’ve touched on almost every single one as we’ve gone through this, the court should grant early termination of probation, if your good conduct and reform justifies the action. And typically this means that the court believes that you’re not a risk to public safety – sound familiar? — and you’re moving your life in a positive direction, which means the rehabilitative trajectory. Second of all, once you achieve that, let’s just say you achieve termination of probation, Dismissal. If a defendant has completed probation or has been discharged early, as mentioned above, they can petition to withdraw their guilty plea (or no-contest plea) and enter a plea of not-guilty, under Penal Code section 1203.4. That is just an incredible, wonderful thing that California offers. On top of which, if you’re successful at doing that, you can move on to:
Chance 52:21
Reductions: If you successfully either got your probation terminated early, and/or get a dismissal which says you completed it without violation, that goes far in helping you achieve a reduction. A defendant can request a reduction of a felony conviction under certain circumstances. As we’ve discussed in prior episodes, this typically occurs after either early termination of probation, or dismissal. The court has the discretion to determine whether to reduce your felony conviction to a misdemeanor, under Penal Code section 17b. The court will consider several factors in determining whether to reduce your conviction from a felony to a misdemeanor, including:
- The nature and seriousness of your offense;
- (But, more importantly) Your behavior while on probation or under court supervision;
- Your prior criminal record; and
- Any other mitigating or aggravating factors in your case,
And all the things I mentioned before go into mitigation. So it’s almost built for you to achieve reduction.
Chance 53:38
Furthermore, if you’re on the list, and that’s the context of what we’re talking about right here, sex registrants can petition for Removal from the California sex offender registry based on the tier of their offense. To be suitable for removal, individuals must not pose a threat to public safety. All that work that went on before, all that stuff goes into that very standard. And if you achieve that, that’s wonderful. But, regardless of that outcome, there’s always a Certificate of Rehabilitation, which we’ve talked about in prior episodes, including the last one, which is a court order that indicates that someone who was convicted of a felony, or a listed misdemeanor sex crime, and served time in state or local prison, has been rehabilitated. It doesn’t erase your criminal record, but can offer benefits such as improving employment or housing opportunities, or help when applying for professional licensure from the state. All these things have a common thread, and they all tie in with each other. They’re all rehabilitative. And they all, all build foundationally on the other. And that, if I were the Department of Rehabilitation, would be a form that I would put down, and have everybody look at and understand, before they went out and started, from day one. So, gentlemen, what do you say about that? What do you say about rehabilitation in the Great State of California?
Larry 55:01
Well, I say that I continue to be intrigued about that Certificate of Rehabilitation. I would like to have that in our state. And I’m also intrigued by reducing your crime after the fact, showing your rehabilitation, that you can have a crime adjusted downward. Is that what you were talking about, “a wobbler”? Or is that a different thing? Because we talked about a wobbler, last episode.
Chance 55:26
Right. That’s a crime that can be charged either as a misdemeanor or a felony, which is called a wobbler. And if it is a felony, yes, it could be “wobbled down” to a misdemeanor, which is incredibly wonderful.
Larry 55:42
But in terms of the reducing the severity of an offense after rehabilitation, are there…? I’m guessing there are offenses that are excluded altogether, that just aren’t eligible — would that be correct — that you can’t reduce?
Chance 55:56
Yes, that would be correct. But one interesting thing about this, in terms of reductions, people think that there’s a time limit. “Hey, I can only do it, you know, during a specific time.” Well, there was a case called Meyer. It’s a 1966 case [247 Cal.App.2d 133 (Cal. Ct. App. 1966)] and I often have brought it to court, when a prosecutor says, “Hey, wait, it’s late in the game. That was ten years ago.” Uh… no. It can happen at any time, anytime after probation expires. And that is such a cool thing that, you know, it’s not limited by time or space. I just love that.
Andy 56:33
Well, someone in chat says, “Chance is making California sound like a great place to commit a PFR-type crime! It sounds like there’s actual rehabilitation, which you don’t hear about in most states.”
Chance 56:45
Well, that – I mean, I’m not so sure you’d want to commit anything here. But I will say this: This state, even though it’s been overshadowed by a lot of stuff, is still a very progressive state in terms of rehabilitation. And I think that, when you look at this, when you look at it from the overhead view, it’s very impressive!
Larry 57:12
Well, you certainly are way ahead of us, in terms of what we’re doing. I would really like for us to have that Certificate of Rehabilitation, and I’d like to figure out a way to incorporate it for people who have non-New Mexico convictions as well. Because if you’ve lived decades and decades of exemplary life here, but you’re from Mississippi, Mississippi is never going to pardon, or expunge, or do anything for you. So you shouldn’t be saddled with your “Mississippi baggage” for the rest of your life.
Andy 57:45
Mississippi would be one of those states where they would do Judge Dredd type things and, “Oh, hey, you jaywalked. Sorry. Death.”
Chance 57:53
Not cool. Not cool.
Larry 57:56
Not quite that bad, but I would like to figure out how to expand the opportunity. Now, I know the argument is going to be that we’ll become a haven for people running from their past. That’s the pushback that we’ll get. But there’s got to be some balance that you can do, to make sure that we don’t become a Mecca for that, but also give people that have legitimately moved here… maybe what we would do is that they’d have to have lived in the state for a certain number of years. That way, you don’t have the people coming just for the opportunity to try to apply for that. If you’ve been a New Mexico resident for ten years or something, then you can apply for a Certificate of Rehabilitation.
Chance 58:36
That’d be nice.
Larry 58:38
So. Well, are we recording an episode next week?
Andy 58:44
Probably. I would think that we would record next week, and then there’s the conference after that, and then, who knows, after that? I got nothing I can say about the 29th and then forward.
Larry 58:56
Okay, so we are on next week. Alright, sounds good.
Andy 58:59
I believe so. Well, very well. Let’s do – Larry, what are these two “good news” things? — And then we will wrap it up.
Larry 59:08
Well, the two good news things are about voting, I think. Nebraska has restored felon rights. They’ve removed the two-year waiting period. So you get off supervision, complete your obligations. And then it looks like that Pennsylvania has made it where people who are incarcerated can vote. And I didn’t dig deep enough into that, but if somebody from Pennsylvania wants to dig into that, we can get further into it. But it looks like they’re going to let – they’re going to join those liberal-lefty-states like Vermont up in the northeast, and I think Maine, where they let people who are incarcerated vote.
Andy 59:46
‘Cause that’s not what the title says. It says, “who have been incarcerated.” That’s not: “who are incarcerated.”
Larry 59:52
Oh! Well, thank you.
Andy 59:54
I mean, that’s the way the title reads. I’m just, so these are just people that have been out. Maybe they’re still on supervision of some kind, whatever. They can vote.
Larry 1:00:01
Okay, well, let’s see. That’s the Philadelphia Inquirer. It’s good news that everybody says, “I can’t vote,” and they pretend like they can’t influence public policy. But you can vote, in many instances. You can vote and you just don’t realize it.
Andy 1:00:14
Yep. And that’s where people go around to typically minority-type neighborhoods and get out information drives to let people know that they very well might be able to vote.
Larry 1:00:28
So yeah, that was behind a paywall. That was the reason why I didn’t do any work-up on it. I couldn’t actually read it.
Andy 1:00:34
One of these days, Larry, we will teach you how to get by the paywalls.
Larry 1:00:38
Well, I don’t like to …pay!
Andy 1:00:39
Again, I can – never mind, never mind. Simple little plug-in to the browser, and you can get by the paywalls. But uh, anywho: We had new patrons! So thank you, Kayden and Matt, who joined just before the show, and he’s the one that we were talking about, the Missouri-Kansas person. Thank you both very much for joining. Kayden did a whole year-long, and Matt just did a monthly pay-as-you-go kind of thing. But that’s all good!
Andy 1:01:06
Head over to registrymatters.co for the show notes. You can leave voicemail at (747) 227-4477, email us at RegistryMattersCast@gmail.com and, of course, as I just mentioned, support us on Patreon at patreon.com/registrymatters. Chance, I hope you survive the heat! And, Larry, I hope you survive the nice weather.
Chance 1:01:30
Thank you. Thank you.
Andy 1:01:33
(I may have had that backwards, on purpose.)
Larry 1:01:36
I’ll see you next week? Maybe.
Andy 1:01:39
Very good. Take care. Have a great night, gentlemen.
Chance 1:01:41
You too.
Announcer 1:01:45
You’ve been listening to F Y P.
Leave a Comment