Listen to RM131: Media Fearmongering Isn’t New
registry matters as an independent production. The opinions and ideas here are that of the hosts and do not reflect the opinions of any other organization. If you have a problem with these thoughts fyp recording live from fyp Studios, east and west, transmitting across the internet. This is Episode 131 of registry matters. 331 episodes, I can’t really quite believe it to be honest with you.
I can’t either. We’re just we’re just beginning.
We are we got more to go.
We’re just we’re just we haven’t reached adolescence yet.
Well, yeah, I mean, I guess by your standards in 131 is probably just like about to hit puberty hasn’t
Unknown Speaker 0:39
not even close. We’re still we’re still in elementary school.
We’re still wearing diapers.
Not until we’re in elementary school.
We have a very special guest joining us tonight. We tried to get them last week, but apparently there was some unrest going on in Minnesota. And so we have joining us a Christian from Minnesota for which I right now. The bed half desk what is Minnesota for
Unknown Speaker 1:02
sure, no problem. Guys, you know, living in Minnesota and go into the struggles that we face every day I have been seeing things from Nassau like Nebraska, the fearless group and some other groups and I kind of approach Brenda talk to Brenda. And there was a contact named Tim. With him we created Minnesota for and at that point I kind of reached out to some churches to say, Hey, this is what we’re about. There was a church and Methodist Church that gladly took this on. And in fact, they want us to spread around the Methodist churches in Wisconsin and Minnesota. So a little struggle getting off are a little struggle kind of taking off, but it’s getting there about 12 numbers right now. So Minnesota stands for Minnesota for our rights.
Oh, I understand. I understand I have like fo you are number four. I have not been able to figure out what Minnesota forest but now I understand. Welcome Welcome. Yeah, thank you guys. Do you want to jump right in Larry or do you wanna? Do you want to give us any words of wisdom before we dive in?
I think we’re gonna jump in because we’ve got a full house of of guests and we’ve got so many articles and we’ve got a tight time schedule because I have an appointment.
They’re good. But yeah, like, before we even get going, like holy cow. We have a whole bunch of people in in livestream like listening to us record this so that is pretty awesome. Like, you know, we joke that you know, thousands of listeners, but it’s a really good number.
Yeah, and and my my fiance’s even here tonight.
I don’t know that she has agreed that that is the case.
Unknown Speaker 2:40
It’s good news to hear Larry. Wow.
Yeah. Especially since she has a husband.
I don’t I don’t I don’t discriminate on things like that.
Unknown Speaker 2:52
Larry always pictured you with two cats and living in a duplex on sorry.
Unknown Speaker 2:57
kidding, I’m kidding.
Yeah, I know. Right? Well, let’s let’s let’s get things rolling. The first thing that we have is, and I think this came out before, like, right as we were recording last week and just didn’t quite grab it in time, but this was a it’s from Texas voices and it’s court cases Hearn vs. Cast, hey, yeah, I don’t even know how to pronounce that word. But it’s an unfavorable decision in the horn case. And I got through about two paragraphs and my eyes roll in the back of my head. And I’m hoping that Larry can digest this for us a little bit.
Sure, I’ll try. So this case, this case was the United States District Court. And we talk a lot about district court cases because and the level of federal courts that’s the trial court of general subject matter jurisdiction, just FYI, you also have another court and the federal system that is as a part of of the judiciary called the magistrate court, the magistrate judges and the magistrate judges play a part in initial proceedings and certain parts of civil litigation. They are done by the magistrate. But this is a this is a trial level court. This case was taken to trial rather than summary judgment. And it was relatively a narrow focus case on the registry violates the plea agreement. And so what what Richard Glenwood who’s been a longtime supporter of Texas voices and has been even on marcil calls and I think he’s, I don’t know if he has attended a conference. Yes, he has. But anyway, he’s been an activist for a long time civil rights attorney and he brought this case. And the theory was that that, that those who received deferred adjudication at one time in Texas did not have to register they were not a covered offender. And, and that example like in Mexico, we have a conditional discharge if if you receive that, that’s an exemption from registration. Texas, remove that registration and Then that that, that that exemption and require those people to register. And then Texas changed the law that require the people to register for life. And so that litigation was challenging that that the plea agreements that people plant thinking they were going to either not have to register, or the other argument is, which wasn’t in this case that I would have to reach for a shorter period of time. The biggest flaw in that logic is you have to prove the registry is punitive. before you’re subject to that type of the plea agreement, the plea agreement if they change something that’s not punishment, which, as far as I know, there’s been no decision in the state of Texas that says the registers punitive I know about, know about those versus Snyder, we could go through a whole list of cases. But that’s not Texas, and the Texas the Texas registry has not risen to the level of of punishment, as far as what has been proven in courts. So therefore, the the litigation was not successful. The state put forth a bunch of specious arguments that they always do. They said that the department is not a party to the plea agreements, therefore, it’s not the proper party to be sued. That’s on page four. They said there’s not a substantive due process right to be free from ongoing registration. They said that a writ of habeas corpus was the right way to bring this rather than a 1983. And they said the statute of limitations on the claims that people had run because since 1983, does have a particular statute of limitations and that that’s actually a law. The federal courts refer to what the statue of limitations are in the state where you’re bringing the action and they said that the state argued the statue of limitations had run. And then they said that the claims are barred by doctrine articulated in hc vs. Humphrey and always Humphrey person take But anyway, I’ve heard that case before. And they they lost they lost their case. I don’t know if Richard I started to do an appeal. But the the case law in the Fifth Circuit, which Texas is in is not good.
And so statute of limitations and how is this how are these situations similar to other places where they have ruled them to be unconstitutional?
Well, not having a lot of knowledge, but the Texas registration, I don’t know if the disabilities for example, or comparable was in Michigan, or in Pennsylvania. But But be that as it may, even if they are, that was one of their claims. They didn’t they didn’t they didn’t raise that as a claim. They their theory was that since the plea agreements at the time, didn’t require registration, that this is changing the plea agreement. So they were they were proceeding under the state of Texas should be required and held that contract and play rooms. Consider contract and the court does say that here, but but the court says that that is that this is merely a regulation. It’s not anything to do with changes or punishment. So therefore, they haven’t changed the plea agreement.
Unknown Speaker 8:12
And true and I wanted to jump in here, guys. Mr. gladden had had the theory of a previous Supreme Court case of Santa Bella versus New York, which they changed his plea agreement and went all the way to the Supreme Court. And I think it was a five four decision. So with that theory, Mr. gladden thought that that’s surely would violate the 14th amendment and the contract clause so but unfortunately, I don’t think the judge a fully read the briefs or cut it short, or something like that, you know,
Larry, yes, being sure he was finished, but But yeah, I’m not. I’m not knocking everybody can look at the world. decision and say what they would have done. I don’t know whether I would have brought this claim or not, I wasn’t faced with this particular person. But anybody who did come to me wanting to bring this, I would tell them that, that until we’ve proved that our registry is punitive, that it’s going to be a long shot. And I know people don’t like to hear that. But if, if you haven’t met the threshold of showing the registry above this punishment, you’re gonna have a hard time getting to where you want to go, because you’re allowed to do a lot of things as long as you’re not altering the punishment.
Christian any replies?
Unknown Speaker 9:37
Yeah, absolutely. I would like to say that. I’m hoping, hoping that the Fifth Circuit of course overrules that. And Larry, you’re right. Read that and reading Texas voices on their page, that player correct me if I’m wrong, I think it was 2012 or 2017 Supreme Court decision our Fifth Circuit that they had already ruled For one of the reasons and I think that Mr. gladden expects once this to get to the Fifth Circuit that they’re going to overrule the the judge. And I think that we maybe 50% there, it could be could be the reasoning behind that. But I do want to share with you another thing really quick. There was a another case in Texas that just previously was one it was ci versus McGraw. Sort of the similar case the guy was on deferred. And this case he got off in 1996. But they didn’t really come looking forward to think about 2012 or 13 said, Hey, you have to you’ve got to do this. He did take it to court, and he did win and the district court, there was this only one gentleman but he didn’t claim the 14th. He didn’t have those constitutional claims as Mr. gladden did. So that was a win, but I don’t know how far that’s going to go and the state court
Well, Christian, how, how is he going to overcome the unpublished opinion now, unpublished opinions are not binding. They’re they’re, they’re merely persuasive. It’s kind of like when you have an out of circuit opinion, when you when you start citing the Sixth Circuit when you’re in the 11th, or the fifth, it’s not binding, but when he takes us up on appeal, how he’s How is he going to overcome the unpublished opinions? And if you look on page seven, it says, what I think is going to be difficult to overcome that, that the Fifth Circuit stated in unpublished opinions, this Court has repeatedly affirmed District Court district courts dismissal as frivolous to claim but retroactive application of Texas law requiring sex for registration and notifications violates Ex Post Facto Clause. So so I’m just wondering how he’s going to get around. Cuz what you’re what you’re gonna have to have happen is you’re gonna have to have three judge panel That’s gonna say,
Unknown Speaker 12:01
well, we’re not bound.
We’re, we’re not bound by this. And we’re going to completely disregard the previous analyses that’s been done.
Well, so what do you think? What are they gonna? Yeah, we can hear you. Here.
Unknown Speaker 12:18
Christian. Just a second here, guys. Oh, can you hear me guys? Yes.
I don’t think he’s hearing us. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 12:27
sorry about that. Can you hear me?
Unknown Speaker 12:28
Yes, me. Okay. We keep saying yes, we’re hearing you but you’re responding to us? Yes.
Unknown Speaker 12:33
Unknown Speaker 12:37
guess you can’t hear me. Mute. me. Okay, sorry. I i do i do see what you’re saying, Larry. I think you’re right. It’s it wasn’t. It wasn’t published. I just got through Misha gladden just had another court case. Interesting enough. This was a very interesting case. I thought. He’s handling the guy in the federal court, same judge by the way. Guy, Richard gladden brought the CI versus a bra case up in court recently, and of course being not published. You’re right. I don’t know a lot about the Publish versus non published. And I thought that was always interesting enough to, to kind of gather
more information about what the non publish are not binding. But, but like I say, you would use it as the same way we would use a out of circuit decision, you would say that when the panel picks up this case, if he takes it up on appeal, they know that it’s not binding, but they’re going to look at the quality of the analysis in it. And if nothing has been changed, and distinguished from their analysis, they would have to be a renegade panel to say we’re going to disregard the previous analysis, even though it is not binding on them that that’s what I’m wondering how he’s going to find two of three that are going to say, to heck with what the previous panel has decided because it is not binding on them because it’s not published.
Unknown Speaker 13:56
Unknown Speaker 13:58
Unknown Speaker 14:01
tough battle to win. For sure. I hope that Mr. Glenn prevails in the Fifth Circuit.
We certainly do hope that but I believe in telling people to my to my detriment that that I think that he’s he’s going against the odds on this that he’s got another step he can follow cert petition with Supreme Court, which I don’t know if he did in Lewisville that did he seek the Supreme Court review in the city of Louisville case with a residence which he did attend a session? And they said, Oh,
Unknown Speaker 14:36
so now here’s here’s another thought. If Larry and Andy if the Supreme Court had made a decision in 1971, and Centerville versus New York, do you think that could How do you think that would inspire further if he had to go beyond the Fifth Circuit to go back to the Supreme Court say we already ruled on this in 1971? What is your thoughts? Something that
Well, I haven’t even read that case. I don’t know what they said. Do you want to enlighten us on what they said and and center Bell?
Unknown Speaker 15:07
Yeah. So, center Bella was a unique case this was a drug case. And in a nutshell, basically, Santa Bella had copped a plea, cut a plea deal. And he was going to give so many years of probation, he’s going to avoid jail time. The during that time, his lawyer originally stepped down and there was a different prosecutor. So it kind of waited during some time, actually, when they made the plea. So things went further. He got back into court to actually play in front of the judge and the prosecutor, a different one had changed the agreement. And at that time, he basically had taken an all the way to the Supreme Court and the overruled that he already made the original deal and the original contract. He just didn’t happen to be in court. To play at that time, give you a good case of mine. I actually did the plea. And I didn’t go to court for two weeks later. So I can see that there may be some time difference on on actually showing up the court to actually do in front of the judge to get down on the record, but that’s essentially how it happened.
So yeah, I didn’t I didn’t read the case. I wasn’t. And I’m not prepared to talk intelligently about santaville.
Shall we bounce over to the next article? Sure. All right, this next one, I don’t know what NCSL National Conference of state legislatures is. Someone had given me this article and said do you think that they could make special license plates for registrants pf Rs? And this is I think there’s a summary of people that have different states that have license plate requirements for various things like DUIs and things like that and just wanted to bounce the idea around could they make license plates for TF Rs.
Well, of course I could,
does it wouldn’t that like immediately start doing some kind of compelled speech kind of thing?
Of course it would. But remember, they can do anything. It they could do anything until they’re stopped, it would be presumed constitutional. When they if a legislature were legislature in the country were to decide to require PFR to have a plate, it would go through the process be signed by the governor of be presumed constitutional, it would be all the PF RS to challenge it.
So we all start driving around with big red blocks of blah, blah, blah, and our license plate that says something nasty on it, like sex offender just like stamped across the middle of it.
Well, I mean, I think that the challenge what, what would be a very, very good challenge, and I think that that that would be one of those things where you could probably get injunctive relief from out of the box, because it doesn’t take it doesn’t take a lot to prove though. The emotional reaction that this would cause and the target. But we have that target on people’s homes. All right. So the logical extension of that would be to have it all on their on their vehicles, wouldn’t it? I mean, they don’t just say their homes all the time.
Definitely not. And you know, and we also have a handful of examples of driver’s licenses.
Unknown Speaker 18:20
Yes, we didn’t in gentleman Minnesota does that they they’ve been doing that when I moved from Texas. It’s called whiskey plates starts with the W. It’s typically your second DUI in the state. And then once you get that you have to wear you have to have whiskey plates on for the entire time of your probation. So they have been doing that. And to go a little further. Last year, there was a senator who wanted to put sex offender on the license plate, it didn’t go anywhere. And luckily it didn’t even get out of the committee hearing but certainly he’s going to try again. next session, but whiskey plates have been around for years.
Well But the way you distinguish, so it’s confined to within the period of punishment. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of latitude afforded to what you can do to people, you can’t do anything you can imagine when people are being punished, but there’s a lot more latitude because you’re repaying a debt to society. And, arguably, if you don’t want to have this marking, we have another place where you will not have to have this marking. And we won’t require this at all. We have another alternative program for you. And you know what that would be right?
I think I do. But what is the answer?
Yes. If when you’re being punished for a crime, and if you don’t like the terms of the punishment that you’re going to have in the community, there is an alternative program they have where you would not be subject to those requirements.
Oh, you could go back to jail or prison.
Yeah. So but but when the punishment ends, the plates, the whiskey plate comes off, right, Christian?
Unknown Speaker 19:54
Yes, yes, it does. Correct. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 19:56
And that’s the same thing about registration registry. That was that was fit within a person’s punishment. I’m not saying any type of registry you could conceive of, but a registration period of some sort would be very difficult to challenge. If it fit within the contours of the person’s punishment, though the problem is, it doesn’t that, but but in terms of, if they were to specifically design this as to be part of the punishment, and that people would have some marking on their license plate, and if they were to put lawmakers are never capable of doing this, so there’s no worry, but he was I can say this, they’re not going to do it, because they always leave with a broad brush. But if you were to use the license plates very narrowly, and strategically towards a certain type of offender, and if you actually had a process to allow them to escape that, to not have that some sort of review process to see if that was appropriate, you could probably do that. For The pf Rs, but the state never likes to have due process because it cost money. Therefore, they would never actually narrowly tailor they don’t that’s not even in their vocabulary to narrowly tailor so they they’re not capable. It’s like what we’re getting to later segment about the police can policing themselves. That is not something that they can do themselves. They just can’t. And and, and we would not be able to expect lawmakers to narrowly tailor something that’s just beyond their vocabulary.
Well, all right, then. So we’re going to the other thing about having like a driver like a license plate thing, so it I have to relate it to Coronavirus, like I saw somebody you know the little like photo things that you put in your car to block the sun and they just kind of like fold up into like a big circle. So like you put this thing around your waist and it creates a six foot diameter thing that you can now walk around and now you know what your six foot separation thing is. So put that on your car. So now you have to have like some sort of bubble around your car that would indicate that you are a person that nobody should be near because you are a PFR I expect
these these type of proposals to really not not catch on. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of pushback on this type of thing. It’s it. It’s, it’s been debated. It’s not It’s not something new if you look at what the CFL that these type of things have been around for a long time proposals for this.
Alright, well then we are going to move over to this has got to be my favorite article tonight. It’s gotta be my favorite article. This is the Marshall project, his first game the pandemic, then came the raw sewage. So these are prisons in Texas, where they have had some plumbing problems, but the administration will not admit that they are having some any sort of a plumbing problems. And they told them that they the inmates that they couldn’t flush their toilets, they couldn’t wash their hands and they could like they couldn’t use water for days and they were pulling on top of pulling on top of booing. It’s really disgusting.
But what do you I mean, Andy, for God’s sakes, if we have, if we have plumbing problems, what do you expect us to do turn all these people loose?
I mean, I don’t know what the alternative is. In the article, they described that the prisons, most of the prisons in Texas are just so old that you’re either gonna have to put some money into it. Or maybe you’re gonna have you’re gonna have to either build new facilities, or maybe you gotta let some folks go home because this chunks expensive.
Yeah, well, you know, and one of one of the points we made was that the town had water problems that they had to curtail the amount of water given to the prison.
Christian, I’m sure you have some sort of points that you’d like to make on this.
Unknown Speaker 23:43
No, I had to some. I do write some people in prison and grown fond at some of these people. And some of them are a little bit needy, but I have heard some horrible stories that I can’t imagine. Now. Take this, Larry. You’re probably what pretty dry heat and you’re probably pretty humid in Georgia but take it down to South Texas and you get 9697 99 degrees right now and it’s hot and it’s a little oppressive a little dry and human and think about the way the prison smells and think about what they’re having a little bit with daily. It’s It’s perfect. Yeah.
Well, Christian want to be confined in those places for any length of time without water.
I go back to what I say over and over again, though the prisons are a direct reflection of Texans, Texans, and it tends to run the gamut across the southern United States. They, they do not want to spend any money on prisons, and they want people to suffer immensely. If you were to go and I don’t care what city you pick in Texas, you can pick whatever you think is the liberal part of Texas. And if you had picked I guess Austin would probably be the the liberal mecca of Texas. Pass if you if you went into Austin and you pulled out a cross section of People, you ask them, Do you think we should go on the building bench to build new prisons, have air conditioning, good facilities and enhance the programming and you wouldn’t even find support for that. it’ll it’ll add a large level in Austin. Texans want the people to suffer. They do not want the presence air conditioned. They take great satisfaction like Surefire pile did with his pink underwear and his no air conditioning and in the green baloney and the things he did to humiliate it makes Texans feel good knowing that prisoners are suffering, and maybe they won’t want to come back. That’s the attitude of too many Texans. I’m not saying everybody said obviously there’s some people and Texas who don’t feel that way. But if you if you if you’re talking to the average citizen in Texas, they don’t want the prisons to be different. If they did, they would be
Unknown Speaker 25:53
absolutely that’s the mentality. And you’re absolutely right, Larry, and that’s that’s, I don’t think that’s going to change Not like California had filed some lawsuits with some overpopulation or sanitation issues, but Texas wouldn’t go that far. And that certainly wouldn’t go that far anyway in Texas, but yeah,
what was one of the little block in there that uh, I want to say that there was a section in there were like people showed up to their details like into, into the cafeteria or the chow hall. And like their, their clothing had been used to mop up some because they got the water running, and then it kind of backfired. So they like reverse the gears on the water and it came back into the, into the unit. So they were like mopping the floors with their clothing. So they show up to work with with poo stain clothing and they smelled really nice. I’m pretty sure that’s this article. Yes, yes. Yes. It says they smelled overwhelmingly of urine and feces. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 26:48
Larry, we are terrible people.
Well, wait, we’ve got budgetary constraints. Do you expect us to actually put more money into prisons I mean, and I’m not saying this. It’s Partially tongue in cheek, but as part for serious, every revenue stream is going to be adversely impacted in every state some states more so than others. But, but revenue to fund government is going to be under great stress. And unlike the federal government, where they just simply put it on the charge account, most states don’t have that option. They have, they have to pretend their budget is balanced. And if your revenue is down by 30%, you’re going to have to look for places to cut and of course, no one wants to be cut. So then since no one wants to be cut, then the question is, what do you cut? And what do you not cut? Well, law enforcement generally tends to be something that gets cut the least and cuts last. But prisons as far as the facilities themselves, the actual structure, and the programs for the inmates. Those things are vulnerable because those people don’t have a lot of political clout. Now they’re not going to want to reduce staff because we have a security problem. If we Do that. They can cut medical, they can cut food, they can cut a lot of things, really to prisons, but they’re not going to want to cut the staff because if they were to reduce the staff by one, there would be a massive escape, you know that it’s a scare tactic. So we’re going to get into late later they would use, but prisons are going to be a low on the totem pole in terms of getting getting their funding. You got a whole lot of other things that state’s fun. And prisons are not nearly as popular as those other programs are.
I see. Well, let’s move over to the appeal, which again, the Joshua Vaughn, I think you’ve said that you don’t remember who this is, but he was at The Ohio conference, and he writes a whole lot of articles related to criminal justice stuff. And this article is less than half a percent of Pennsylvania prisoners have been granted the emergency release during the pandemic. Again, we have people that probably you know, their their short term, their elderly, they already have pre existing kinds of conditions that they could be released early furloughed temporary suspension, all these things And like Governor Wolf has signed off on 153 reprieves and only 140 people have been released from prison as part of the program. Again, we are putting these people in grave danger from having the Coronavirus infect the prison system and they’re not letting anybody go home.
Well, the to give the kudos to the two governors that are apparently doing more the Kentucky Governor, the democrat governor of Kentucky and Bashir, and then the republican governor of Oklahoma, Kevin Stitt, but now let’s remember a few episodes back we talked about that, that governors on the democrat side are being threatened by the opposition party, that if they do this, that they’re going to pay a price at the polls because they’re going to be vilified. And wolf is one of those governors that Republicans have threatened to take him to court if he uses his executive powers too freely, because they don’t want a tidal wave of crime released in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
Think like, I don’t want foreshadow too much but we have another article coming out later, almost describing almost that same thing with a Republican legislature stymieing some something that the the left wanted to do.
Unknown Speaker 30:11
Well, yes. But But the point I’m making is in Oklahoma, I give the kudos to step for doing the right thing. He won’t be vilified. You won’t have any democrat lawmakers criticizing him for being more generous with reprieves. When you flip it over, you have a democrat governor. And if the republicans run the legislature, they will vilify the democrat governor for letting people go. So the democrat is worried about his or her political career. Steve doesn’t have that to worry about because no one will vilify him over this particular issue. They may feel fine for something else. I’m not saying the democrats don’t vilify Republicans, but they don’t do it generally over this particular issue.
Christian, anything you want to add?
Unknown Speaker 30:59
No Nothing on this one. I did read this printed out copy guys, by the way that I held in my hand, but nothing.
All the articles. Yeah, there’s
Unknown Speaker 31:10
a whole ream of paper.
Unknown Speaker 31:12
Well, Andy, I’ll tell you this. I really appreciate you this week, because last week, I printed out all those articles last week that I missed. And boy, that was a lot. It was like 300 pages. The state that I worked for the state and I’m like, Where’s the paper Christian? This I’m like, oh, there’s only a few pages. This is great. So.
So are you telling me that the hard working taxpayers of Minnesota have I’ve paid for this for this extravaganza of years of printing these articles?
Unknown Speaker 31:43
Yes, they have. Should. Luckily, no last names are here. Thank goodness. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 31:49
no, no, no.
So but are they releasing anybody up in Minnesota that you’re aware of
Unknown Speaker 31:59
today momentum and D are repeating
are they releasing anybody in Minnesota that you’re aware of?
Unknown Speaker 32:04
Oh, no they’re not I tell you Andy you probably know who this is. And Larry I know for sure you know this this I I do write back and forth with Josh Galen, you know who he is waiting for the civil commitment Virginia. He had. He has a group called justice. I forgot the exact name of it. But they had petitioned the governor to let the people out of Moose Lake, which is a civil commandment facility, and I think there’s 700 people total in the state. He did try to push that of course, that wasn’t gonna go anywhere. either. So yeah,
I do know who that is, by the way.
Okay. That wasn’t for sure. But yeah, yeah.
Ready to be a part of registry matters. Get links at registry matters.co. If you need to be discreet about it, contact them by email, registry matters firstname.lastname@example.org You can call or text a ransom message 27472274477 want to support registry matters on a monthly basis, head to Patreon comm slash registry matters. Not ready to become a patron, give a five star review at Apple podcasts or Stitcher or tell your buddies at your treatment class about the podcast. We want to send out a big heartfelt support for those on the registry. Keep fighting without you, we can’t succeed. You make it possible. Well, I think that covers the fun short side of like the news articles that we can go into what we should probably title like the the abuse of power and possibly a day of reckoning coming for the abuse of power from our law enforcement apparatus as you would like to call it Larry. We have a bunch of clips and a bunch of articles that we can go through and discuss the coming changes whenever you are ready. There
will I’m going to try to set this up and and focus on what I’ve tried to do is to do some analogies of the present versus the past because I have this crazy thing I do as I look backwards to look forward. And I take a lot of abuse for that. But that’s how I predict the future because the past will tell us a lot about what people will do in the future. And as I as I’m watching, and we were talking last week, I said that, that the the police will engage in terror scare tactics and they will try to terrorize the the citizens if we began to try to assert control, and that is beginning to already unfold there. The Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity both everybody I think that listen to us at least heard those names. But Tucker Carlson said that the leftist wanting to defund the police and abolish the police and all these untrue things. But what I’ve got is a series of clips tonight. I’m a city councilor in many apalis wants to reduce the increase of the police budget. And he’s already being vilified. And then a lot of people that that are in the registry position that we have, that the battle we’re fighting. They say the media so horrible that it used to be that way. Yeah, I hate to break it to you. They did. They, we just didn’t have as much of it. And yesterday, I was thinking about what kind of event Can I can I use to illustrate a point about the scare tactics that we use, and I went back to 1981 with the traffic controllers decided to strike against the US government and the silver approaching 40 years since that strike. And there were predictions made by the strikers about all these dreadful things that would happen. And of course, none of them did. Nothing dreadful happened, of the predictions that were made. But the same thing the police are gonna do. They’re gonna To tell us all these dreadful things that will happen. So let’s start with clip one from the msnbc.
All right, here we go.
Unknown Speaker 36:07
The place where this current American uprising all started, of course has been the apalis, Minnesota where a number of elected officials in the state are pushing for police reform. One of those officials is city council member Steve Fletcher. And he had this just incredible Twitter thread yesterday talking about his attempt to reform and basically being stymied at every turn by the Minneapolis police union quote, politicians who criss cross the Minneapolis Police Department find slowdowns and their wards. After the first time I cut money from the proposed police budget. I had an uptick in calls taking forever to get a response. And Minneapolis Police Department officers telling business owner to call their Councilman about why it took so long. Minneapolis city council members Steve Fletcher joins me now. Thanks for joining us, Councilmember. Maybe you can start by giving us a little context about policing and the Minneapolis police department in your city even before George Floyd’s Death and the latest protests.
Unknown Speaker 37:01
Absolutely. So we have been struggling with police accountability for many, many years. We have known it was a problem. Many of us on the city council ran on police reform and on police accountability. This is not the first person to die at the hands of the Minneapolis police department. It is certainly the one that is the clearest about it being just utterly inexcusable and indefensible. So I think this has sparked a new level of outrage. But this is something that we have been working on and and you know, as I talked about, it’s something that I’ve been trying to in incremental ways begin to chip away at begin to think about what functions of the police code we replace with other kinds of responses. what ways can we create accountability, to make sure that there’s discipline for abuse of power and misuse The use of force and some very challenging
Unknown Speaker 38:02
what what has happened? What has happened when
Unknown Speaker 38:05
you have attempted things like for instance, cutting police budgets, this is something that’s kind of sacrosanct. In many cities, major cities around the country. Police take up 40 to 50% of the total budget for the entire city. What is the organized opposition from both the police department police union been like when there are any attempts to do that.
Unknown Speaker 38:24
And the ironic thing is we weren’t even proposing a cut to their budget, we were proposing a cut to a proposed increase. So it felt to me like it was probably insufficiently progressive for even what I had run on in some ways. And we still had a you know, they’re very good at organizing a base of sort of law in order conservatives and also scaring people by either implying that there’ll be aggressive about enforcement about something or that they will slow down enforcement about something so I start getting calls saying, hey, there’s a guy sitting in our park. A lot stalking one of my employees, and we’re calling unreal one about it and they’re saying, Oh, we can’t do anything about it. Talk to your council member.
Now, Larry, why would you get like the super over the top left wing job clip on this publication here?
I didn’t didn’t view it quite that extreme over the top. I’m trying to prepare people for what the police are going to do. We’re in a battle that we haven’t seen. And these people are not going to go down easy that they’ve they’ve had total control, total support, no questions, no control. I mean, they’ve had the control, but the citizens have had virtually no control over them for so long. They’re not going to want to give that up. And so I’m trying to do what I do best is tell people look, this battle is gonna be a tough one. Yeah. So that’s, that’s the that’s the backdrop for this question. Do you know that counselor, I know you don’t live in Minneapolis proper
Unknown Speaker 39:59
now. No, not at all but close to it in the suburbs. No, not particularly that. That City Council. I do know that they want to. They did that the school districts had pushed Minneapolis police there. They want to disband the police and they just want to use the the Hennepin County Sheriff’s Department. But again, I don’t think that that’s going to go anywhere. Minneapolis is very diverse. You have a large, smaller population. So and again, if you guys know, was a US Congressman Keith Ellison, he’s now Attorney General from Minnesota. His son is one of the city council members as well. So I think it’s gonna go round and round for a while until this kind of quiets down, but they certainly want to cut the police force at this point.
Well, I want to I want to dig into that point you made there because that’s part of the scare tactics that Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity are using. Now you’re talking about for those who don’t know Minnesota, Minneapolis, the county is Hennepin County. And what they’re talking about doing is since they can’t control the police department is they’re talking about having a uniform, unified police structure where it would be under the Hennepin County Sheriff’s, which would be an elected position. And I’m not sure sure the data paid County Sheriff’s office’s without fault as well. But they’re not talking about just having lawlessness and a law enforcement. They’re talking about shifting from having a sheriff’s department and a police department to having the sheriff bees respond to law enforcement entity for the entire county. Do I have that right, Christian?
Unknown Speaker 41:38
That is correct. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 41:40
And so so the scare tactics that you hear that they won’t tell abolish the police. They want to abolish this particular agency, and replace it with another agency that apparently has a better track record at policing. That’s what they’re wanting to do so, but as I brought up the air traffic control system, There’s a lot of people listening that may not be able to remember that 1981 but the, the, to work for the, for the for the FAA to be a traffic controller, you have to take an oath not to strike and they decided in August of 81, that they were going to go out and strike because of their grievances had not been satisfactorily addressed. So let’s do clip one.
Right here. clip number
Unknown Speaker 42:22
one, we’re on strike.
Unknown Speaker 42:24
That’s how local Petco president Steve wallet announced the beginning of the walkout in Norfolk, Waller surrounded by area controllers charged the skies are unsafe and said there could be a tragedy.
Unknown Speaker 42:35
When the civilian controllers in France went on strike, the French government attempted to run the traffic system with military controllers. Within 72 hours, there was a mid air collision. I would hate to see that happen in the United States.
Unknown Speaker 42:47
But at the local FAA office where security has been beefed up to prevent any sabotage tower chief bill commander says it’s as safe to fly today as yesterday. If it’s not safe, we’re going to keep them on the ground and slow things down and on As many airplanes but safety is the first consideration, the operation will be safe, I
Unknown Speaker 43:03
can assure you, but money
has a certain tonal quality. Like I’m completely like side railing the conversation for a moment. But like there’s just a certain tonal quality of how the things were produced 30 years 40 years ago,
Unknown Speaker 43:16
and only say some Larry and I do kind of remember because I do like a lot of political and historical things. It was the Reagan years and it was a union issue. And didn’t Reagan kind of push this sort of, he was for them. And he brought in scabs, as we know that union term bringing in the scabs to kind of cover them during the time. I don’t know how well they did if there was any collisions at that time, but I think Reagan had a part in this and the Republican Party,
Unknown Speaker 43:42
I believe, would you say for them push them? He wasn’t for the controls for union that
Unknown Speaker 43:48
was not for the union or at least the federal government. You know, I I work for the federal government were for the Air Force. At one point we had a American Federation of government employees. I know that the the federal government didn’t appreciate or like the federal government, the union because we’re working for the public. We’re working for us. So what’s the purpose of having a union? Why do we need one when we’re in the public sector, and that’s the the thing I got when I was employed from the federal government.
Well, that was the very conversation I was hoping to avoid in terms of the of the merits of the strike and who did what, but it was during the first year of the Reagan administration of his first term, it was in August that he had been inaugurated in January. And he he made a point that, that they had pledged inside the data strike and therefore that that their strike was unlawful. And he, he gave them a period to come back to work, which they declined to do so. And then they they they were all fired. And but yeah, that I wasn’t wanting to debate the merits of the strike. It was about the the, the the sensationalism, you heard the threat that the planes were gonna fly off from the sky, and I don’t want to say that that’s gonna happen, but it’s a possibility. It’s a possibility. Yeah, that’s that was what I was trying to get out of that clip and then so yeah, let’s do let’s do clip two now. All right
Unknown Speaker 45:14
offer controllers are standing strong in their bodies stay off the job. Despite President Reagan’s threat to fire controllers who don’t report for work by 11am Wednesday, local Petco. President Steve wallet says he isn’t worried.
Unknown Speaker 45:27
What’s the president gonna do when we all get fired? What’s United States government going to do when 13,000 air traffic controllers are out of work?
Unknown Speaker 45:33
Walmart says it would take years to train enough people to replace all patco members and he once again charged the skies are not safe.
Unknown Speaker 45:41
Yesterday they had a near mid air over in New Jersey 15,000 feet between the blue Air Canada and in New York here. I don’t want to predict would be an accident. The possibility exists that there could be an accident. A serious meantime.
Okay, so we’ve heard two clips on tooth to tooth scary to death, now I lived through that, not a single plane fell from the sky in 1981 8283 that I can recall, I recall, I recall that, that the air traffic control system was under stress, I recall that, that they had to slow down the number of planes they had to end those days a lot. They had, they had huge peak times in the morning, and they had it morning and an evening push. And they they had they had, they had to reduce the number of planes. They had to manage the flights, but nothing fell from the sky. All the Armageddon that they predicted it would take all these years to rebuild air traffic control was wrong. They, they they were able to re staff the towers, and they were able to have a safe air traffic control system. And the point I’m making is I’m not taking sides in the end the strike, but they weren’t using those scare tactics 40 years ago, just like their dog now, about all these dreadful things that are going to happen.
How cats gonna get pulled out of the trees if the police are removed if they’re defunded and all that.
I don’t think they’ve done much of that for a long time. So it’s the fire department anyway. So yeah, so let’s let’s go ahead and do clip three of the of the series. I just
tell you that all of these clips they all came in with just like the left channel, so I had to go do some finagling to get it to be both sides.
I don’t know what the left channel is and what both sides means.
Well, you have two ears, so one of them is left and one of them is right. Anyway, they were they were recorded all on one side.
Unknown Speaker 47:33
Hmm. But think about that.
Unknown Speaker 47:36
And also controllers remain resolved not to go back to work and their daily press briefing, acting president bob Cameron predicted the system will fail next week. When fatigue sets in on the skeleton staff. Kevin also issued a warning to anyone who applies for a ,000 a year controller job
Unknown Speaker 47:53
in 32 minutes good as an air traffic controller. Wait till you’ve done it for a couple years. It doesn’t look like much at all. And believe me I mean that sincerely, you 20,000 applicants, my jobs available, I’ve been fired. Give it a try. And I’d like to talk to you about five years and see how you feel then
now that we’ve got some mathematicians out there, so somebody that’s in chat, convert 32,000 from 81 and forward that to today and tell us what what that amount of money would be. So we can have a picture what the salary was like an 81 employee not doing that one. I know but we’ve got 100 people in chat right now somebody can do that. And and then the the the other the other clip is regarding that when you take a stand for something you believe in, you just might face arrest. So let’s hear a clip clip for
Unknown Speaker 48:40
the fact that he was jailed was no surprised at all backpack go president Steve wallet. The morning the strike began wallet said he expected to be arrested. Do you expect to go to jail? Yes. What about the rest of the guys behind you? How do you how do you assess the whole jail situation?
Unknown Speaker 48:55
I remember that happening prepared to do whatever is necessary. They are they’re aware of the consequences. And jail is one of those that they are one of those consequences.
Unknown Speaker 49:07
So they, they, they made a stand for what they believed in. They do their consequences like we’re breaking the law. And the entire workforce with exception of the few that returned were fired. And Congress passed the law changed the law in 1986, that they could be rehired. And by 1986 the FAA had law didn’t need it. It didn’t need these people back out of the 13, almost 13,000 I think that went on strike only about 600 wherever return to work with the with the FAA. So, folks, life as we know, it didn’t end. The doom and gloom didn’t happen. The scare tactics that existed 40 years ago. Were around them. And they’re around now and they’re probably more in house now because they have more methods to scare you. Those days. I had the three networks and sub limited PBS, but They were doing what they were doing that what they’re doing now they did decades ago. This is not anything new. So it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what they’re going to do, because this is what they’ve always done.
Well, let me I, I kind of want to, like reveal the man by the curtain. Why are we talking about this? Like, what does this have to do with the registry?
Unknown Speaker 50:18
Well, the George Floyd really doesn’t have any direct thing to do with the registry. It has to do with police accountability, and police overreach. And what we do have in common is that a lot of pf ours people forced to register, suffer a lot of police overreach anything from invasions of their home without permission, and threats. If they don’t cooperate. They are told to do things that are not in the statutes and threatened with prosecution. And they they the the overreaching police who are not accountable. This is a mindset. What we want is police when they have a function to do To do no more than the function select with Cobb County, which Cobb County we haven’t forgotten about you, we’re coming for you. So, but, but, but but people who invent requirements, it’s because of lack of accountability. We don’t want police overreaching. If we tell them that your job is to make contact with a PFR is once a year and collect this list of information. We don’t want you in bidding a brand new list of information and telling people that they have to do things that are not required to do because ideally, you would like them to do that it’s not your job what you’d like them to do. So the indirect the relationship is that our police are doing a lot of things that they shouldn’t be doing. And they do it because they can and so it’s about accountability of the of the police and our law enforcement agencies across this country. That’s that’s the direct comparison here. But But yes, I don’t think that anything is cut and dry that idi these killings were done because someone was forced to register As a sex offender,
right? I know I, I’m with you. I just wanted because I can see all the hate mail like, Man, you guys have gone too far away from the registry stuff. And I just wanted to make sure that we early on because there’s still a good ways to go on this to make sure that we described why we were bringing up this sort of agenda, something from 40 years ago was like, what does this have to do the registry? And it’s because like you said that the the extra, overzealous attitude that law enforcement has against pf Rs. and the current situation with George Floyd and all of the protests and all that they are very they’re not that tangentially related. They’re they’re fairly closely related.
Well, when the next time when a when a registry officers shows up your house and says, I want to come in? Do you feel confident enough to say no, and that the average average person out there The answer is no. And the reason why is because of the power that that badge and the company officers represent the intimidation factor. Wouldn’t it be nice if they were not allowed to knock you Your door and demand to do Did you comply with something that’s not in the law? Wouldn’t that be a better society?
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. If you weren’t, like totally scared, hopeless that they’re gonna come in and tasers and guns blaring. And anyway, Christian, anything to add before we we continue?
Unknown Speaker 53:18
No, no, I think that this good coffee, good conversation. We’re hearing it every day. I know the Minneapolis orchestra and forgot the other one. But there’s a lot of people did discontinue the service. And of course, you’re going to hear that that things are going to go rogue and we’re going to be lawless and just all over the place. So I think that good topics and we’ll see what wants to come in Minneapolis and how this is going to shape our community and state.
I think we have an article it might just like touch on it along the way, though, that different places have have canceled their contracts. It’s what Christian was just talking They’ve canceled their contracts with law enforcement to have police in schools or maybe they’re in shopping malls. This is kind of sparked a whole like maybe we don’t need all of them running around all the time just being policing kind of people. I felt that way.
And and of course, when you when you say what I’m about to say, we don’t know what didn’t happen because of the police. It’s always difficult no matter what the scenario is, but most everybody out there has probably heard of the International Balloon Fiesta because we’re the largest hot air balloon festival event. And certainly the country and possibly the world happens here in Albuquerque because of the beautiful setup we have for pilot hell ideally, balloons launch and land here. And and but I go out to the Fiesta. It always disappoints me that there’s all this law enforcement. And I’ve never noticed anything of any consequence. You have 10s of thousands of people Every day over the course of the Fiesta, nothing ever happens. And of course, we don’t know what would have happened weren’t there, but it just feels very intimidating when you’ve got Mounted Police, and you’ve got all these people, there’s just such a presence, you know, people are having a good time. They’re watching beautiful balloons, they’re buying things for their families, or they’re not out there to cause trouble. So, so I’ve always thought they could do was quite a bit less.
Understand we need more clips, are we ready to
Unknown Speaker 55:28
get some more more clips, but I think we’re gonna bring in the the the importance of voting a little bit later. And then I think we can go ahead and do the thing about black people. We got a comment last week about this wouldn’t have been an issue about if it were, if the person had if George Floyd had been white, and I kind of took issue with that because it has been it has been something that’s been on the forefront of this podcast. I don’t know how many episodes we’ve talked about. Police behavior over the top. It hasn’t been erased. thing at all for us it’s been the the the conduct we attack we attack if you send my kid to the ground this junior high school or high school I don’t care what race of the kid is I care about that shit was when when you when you handcuff a woman giving birth to a child I don’t care whether she’s black or white. I mean it never enters my mind. But I responded back that that that that the shaver murder in the, in the Hotel in Las Vegas, he was white and yellow, that got a lot of notoriety. He was proud the cop was prosecuted. The jury refused to convict him in Albuquerque with the James Boyd case when they shot him off the side of the mountain but he was trying to surrender. He was white. There was an uproar. There was protests all over the city. A little bit of it got out of control, and he was prosecuted and he won like the cops typically do. They don’t they don’t return guilty verdicts. But I don’t see it. I don’t see that that’s the point. But anyway, that was printed not just like lives if we play that play that clip, nobody’s saying that this is only affects black people.
Unknown Speaker 57:11
It’s not just black males that it’s happening to look at the Sandra Bland and now look at this. That is children, children, children that would treat it as if they had just robbed a bank or shot up a church. And I you set up a church because when we were in Charleston, fighting for Walter Scott, that happened, and do you know how he was apprehended with fast food and a smile, and politely put in handcuffs. And I remember sitting in my hotel room looking at the TV stunt
going, going back to something that you were just talking about, like we covered things where the school resource officer which whatever you want to call it, like the cop in the school, Body Slam some kid that was going down the hallway?
Unknown Speaker 57:52
No, it’s it’s certainly I think that that I don’t want to speak for the person because he’s not here to speak for himself. But I think that he’s overreacting, that that this is somehow of a black issue, you’re more likely going to have an escalating behavior. If you’re black of what will what will set off an officer, particular white officer seems to be able to lower tolerance. And I say that because I’ve got a lot of life experience and I know how I get treated with a cop. I know how gently I am treated. And then I’ve been in the law business long enough, watched enough video now of how the encounters go down with people who are younger and darker, and they don’t react and interact the same way that they do with someone like me. And I have a friend who lives in Georgia he said when he got pulled over several times because there are some stolen gasoline and his his truck fit the description and he said he got pulled over several times in the course of an hour and a half, making its way up by 75 And he said all he did what the police told him. I said, but yet you but you gotta remember, you’re 60 years old, you had a spouse sitting in the vehicle with you. You didn’t present a threatening profile to the officer. Therefore the officer approached you. That is a felony stop. But I’m just wondering if this red vehicle could be it. I wonder, Sir, did you? Did you happen to get off at x at 72? We got a report of a vehicle driveway on gasoline. If you had to 20 year old black man was dreadlocks. And if there were if the windows were slightly tinted, and that vehicle was thumping a little bit with what do you call that rap music to offer sir would have approached that officer would have approached them entirely differently. So what they would have been required to do would not be the same internet interactions that I or you would have had. So you can’t say
Unknown Speaker 59:55
that your friends is saying that they shouldn’t be black.
Unknown Speaker 59:58
Well, he’s not saying directly but he’s he’s he’s acting as if how he’s treated is representative of how everybody is treated when they interact with the police and it isn’t. You know, the the college, the college, the college students that Atlanta. I mean, ideally he would have kept moving when the officer said, you know, keep keep moving, but he did. And he had someone that was outside the vehicles, I understand it, and he was trying to get he was trying to pick him up. And he didn’t keep moving and that irritated the police officer. The irritation level would have been a lot lower. Had it been someone like me, they would have said, Sir, could you please keep moving? We got to keep traffic flowing here.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:39
But I don’t think they would have tried to pull me out of the car when I didn’t keep moving.
I had I had an interesting thought the other day, I was walking up to the bank and I was thinking about all of the video that has surfaced over these issues because everyone is running around with like a high definition camera in their pocket 24 hours a day. And I was thinking about, you know, there was this big scare in the 50s of UFOs and We don’t have the same corresponding photos of alien craft coming into our atmosphere with all the cameras. But all of a sudden, all these videos have surfaced of police overreach. And I was just sort of trying to draw the comparison that everyone has a camera. We should have found the photos by now, but we should have found a lot of cops doing bad things.
Yeah, I would think so if they were out there, we should have more more objects. And when they do have an object, it’s so so blurry that no one can figure out what it is. And then they think the government tells us it’s a weather balloon or it’s a shadow or something like that. Yep. All right. Where are we going now? I guess we can start going to the articles and we need to move through them pretty fast because we’ve got 15 minutes left.
All right and all right. So we will we will start and we are going to start with this first article is from courthouse news. Minnesota officials link arrested looters to white supremacist group. I kept hearing things like this Larry from different news outlets that the not just the protesters, but specifically the The ones that were creating the the massive amounts of unrest that they were from out of state, they might not have been part of black lives matter in those various groups. And they’re linking this to like white supremacist groups and other other organizations that are inciting kind of violent kind of activities.
Well, I am going to punt this one to our Minnesota to see what he knows about about these supremacist groups.
Christian, what do you got? You are a muted Christian. Christian has fallen asleep.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:33
Oh, all right. Well, I think that what I would say is that I have had that suspicion for a long time. people, when they when they judge these protests, the overwhelming 10s of thousands of them that are protesting across the country are doing nothing more than just walking peaceably. But as with any crisis, anything presents an opportunity for those who don’t have the best of intentions to blend in and It’s hard for you to know, if you’re walking with a group of 700 people, or 1000, or whatever it may case, you don’t know, all 700 or 1000, and you don’t know what their intentions are. So therefore, as you’re making your way towards your final destination where you’re going to make your stand, and hold your signs and chant, you don’t know what anyone’s gonna do until they do it. But it presents a beautiful opportunity for people who have sinister intentions. And I wish the law enforcement would say the same thing that they ask of themselves. Law enforcement, cops, please don’t judge the 10s and hundreds of thousands of people who have protested correctly, don’t paint them all with that same brush because a few instigators for whatever the reasons are, have tried to exploit this for their own agenda. What we do is we arrest those people in the last count on over 5000 people had been arrested across the country, but we deal with those 5000 and the other hundreds of thousands that have protested they shouldn’t be painted with that brush. I don’t know anything about display supremacy hope so hopefully Christian can tell us what they know of Minnesota. Christian.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:05
Sure, sure. So if you guys can hear me I was having some difficulties. We had the protesters, calm, peaceful, wanted to get the message across about law enforcement and then justice and the community. Then you have the unruly ones that caused havoc and burn and destruction and so forth. And at that point, they don’t have a justification to go that far. They didn’t have a reason at that. They just had an excuse to do what they wanted to do. There was a lot of spin in Minnesota, the governor said that 80% were out of state coming in from out of state from Fergus and Ferguson, I believe, and some other places to cause havoc, but it wasn’t the truth. It turns out that they were from Minnesota, they were a younger population. And so that’s just the case. So Both sides. The protesters abided by the curfew. They went inside. When it was time, the unruly ones didn’t. But as far as the white supremacy, Department of Corrections commissioner and the governor had said that there was reports of white supremacy, passing out literature and here to help increase the violence, that wasn’t actually confirmed. So but there was presence of an Tifa that were in Minnesota.
Let’s move over to an article from USA Today is federal prisons under national lockdown amid George Floyd protests, most severe restrictions in 25 years. I think this goes along with another article that will have a few about the Federal Bureau of Prisons taking their like Incident Response Team, you know, tech squad, whatever, and sending them into hotspots like Miami and DC. I think that’s actually another article coming up. So because those units aren’t available at the prison, well, God we gotta lock everybody down in the prison. We can’t have any movement? And so that’s not good. So they’ve already been locked down because of COVID. And now they’re being locked down because the police or the prison is redirecting resources.
Well, I, I would just like for, for the non people, the non president, people that are listening, there’s an audience out there that has never been incarcerated. When you hear the term block down, if you’re not been in a facility, tell people what that means in terms of a lockdown. Because the average person who hasn’t been in a jail, they think, well, they’re locked. Yeah, that’s the whole point. So what what does the lockdown mean in terms of your daily ritual,
depending on if you’re if you’re in a cell if you’re eating a one or two man cell, like I mean, you’re just stuck in your cell and maybe they’ll do limited movement to get you to the child to do food or they’ll just throw the open the door and throw up pack out like a little bag of like a peanut butter sandwich with some chips and a cup of kool aid in there like that. That could be the extreme of you’re just you’re just stuck in yourself. If you’re in an open what
I bet as opposed to a normal day you’d be doing a job right? You’d be out you’d be moving around if you’re you would have some some kind of duty for what you’re a porter or whether you’re what do you do the yards? Or what do you work in? As a barber? You’ve got some kind of duty to perform. So you’re you’re locked down in a very small, confined area 24 hours a day, roughly.
Yeah. And even when they start doing that stuff, well, then then there’s no yard so those people don’t go to work. And maybe they’ll do haircuts. I mean, obviously, people are still going to go to do food. But the library would be shut down. I mean, anything outside of essential services, hey, like, Well, we know about essential surfaces. Now. You wouldn’t necessarily have had a frame of reference of what would be considered essential prior to two months ago. But then even still, if you’re in like an open dorm, like what are you supposed to do? Like they would lock you down and say you just can sit on your bed. You can’t move around to other people’s beds and hang out and talk or you know, do whatever you would do play cards, like you’re just stuck at your bunk. For days, weeks,
and what is a lock down to to the tension level and our facility in terms of when when that type of confinement no movement does what what would what would be the result of of the would the prison population be easier to manage or more difficult to manage in that environment?
I think that would actually be answered that would be both Larry because if you don’t have people moving, there’s not much to manage. But you do have a powder keg inside the inside the unit, people were going to get pissed off, they’re gonna you know, they’re not outside, they’re not getting any sun. They’re not getting releasing any energy anywhere, like, you know, playing basketball or something like that. So you get like, tension level can go through the roof. And as soon as someone says, Hey, man, what’s up now, like, Oh, you’ve now said something that offends me. So then then shit just breaks out and things get ugly. Well, that was the point I was making it
that way. And if we need to, we need to return prisons to as much normal operation as we can as quickly as we can if we don’t want to have violence because that’s where this is going to lead to If we don’t, and I’m not trying to do scare tactics like we just heard, this is just the reality of what happens in presence. The reason why we learned decades ago, what we’ve learned about prison management is that we have to have something that consumes the energy and the attention of inmates if they have nothing but boredom, the outcomes are gonna be good after a prolonged period of time. So we need we need the prisons to be returned to normal operations as quickly as they can.
Very good. And then from why why police reforms in Pennsylvania languished after Antwan roses killing will now be will now be any different. I think this is another roughly similar says in June 2018, a police officer shot and killed Antoine rose the second and unarmed black teenager in a small borough outside of Pittsburgh. Oh, this is what I was referred to a couple articles ago about where roses death led to an emotional Protests the arrest of the officer and a package of police reform bills introduced by Democrats legislation that went nowhere in the republican controlled state legislature. I brought that up a handful of articles go about change, trying to be introduced but then being stymied.
Yeah, so this is the place where would fit in a nice clip the importance of voting. This is the response to people who who have watched the reform efforts based on bid in Pennsylvania. If you don’t like it, listen to this.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:31
That’s still not enough. Even charging them. There has to be policing changed. Why is that so hard? How many more examples Do y’all need? What chief doesn’t want to change a system that you clearly see is broken. And if a politician doesn’t want to, then fine, it is just time to start voting people out of office. African Americans don’t typically turn out in the mass that they could. Well now you’ve awoken you want to see what a boat can do now stand up against trying to change
so That Larry’s like, I recall. So the Colin Kaepernick kneeling for the national anthem and whatnot from last NFL season. I’m sure you I know you’re not a sports fan, either my but I’m sure you heard about it. Sure. And the NFL came out and severely condemned the President was running around saying that these sob s and whatnot. And just today yesterday, the NFL has come out and said, we were wrong. And we’re not going to sanction anybody that that wants to kneel for the flag and all this stuff. And I and I remember people in my area, they were like, I’m not watching the NFL until they get you know, until they they squelch to this, this protest. And I was like, holy crap, you guys are crazy. These people like are getting beat up and killed by police. So somebody takes a knee on the field and you’re gonna boycott watching the NFL. I thought it was wrong. I was I thought it was ridiculous that they would take the stance, let alone not agree with the stance.
Well, I never understood the whole thing it kickers always thought kneeling. I thought that was an act of reverence I never understood. I truly didn’t understand it. Because I never thought that that was a when you nail it church you’re not being disrespectful to God Almighty are you? So I thought kneeling was I thought kneeling was a good thing to do.
And and I and I can guarantee you now we’re going to get hate mail. But my understanding is Colin kapernick actually, like, counseled with a navy seal to say, what would be the most respectful thing that I could do to do this, and this is what he was recommended to do was to kneel. Yeah, you’re right. I mean, like, you know, you kneel when you go into church and do various things like that, like, Neil, like, you know, before you kiss the ring of the Pope, I’m sure.
I’ve never understood that. But But beyond that, beyond that silly part of it, this whole country is founded upon the freedom of expression. Now, you are on the job. You are on employers time, and you have somewhat less right to express yourself on the company time. So therein lies the problem I do recognize when you try when you’re working at your regular job, try telling your employer that you have unlimited freedom of expression and see what happens. So, so I do but I just didn’t see that as being all that disrespectful and i i i didn’t understand the controversy it went over my head.
I get it. Christian you just jump in here if there’s anything that you want to say because we’re gonna we’re gonna bounce through these things really quick but if there’s anything that you want to
Unknown Speaker 1:13:30
know no and I’m glad you talked about that i i just share one of my favorite quarterbacks is Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints love them to death. And, you know, he made a comment that he didn’t believe you should know the national anthem and the NFL commissioner came back and popped off and we know how power and political this can get. And then immediately he backed off his story and it was kind of ashamed that he didn’t keep his platform and his views and change that. I don’t know why. Guess if you’re going to have that key. your views and keep them and regardless of the backlash
over at corrections one calm never heard of this one oh this. This brings it up says Attorney General bar since BLP Riot team to DC and Miami CBP is the Bureau of Prisons, the move to send the bps Special Operations response teams comes as violence continues across the country. I still can’t fathom how this and then like I don’t think we have anything that covers this went. Larry, did you read that he signed the order for the police in DC to clear the path for the president?
I’m not clear on that for sure. But it it was it was a strange reaction to what I thought was a peaceful demonstration to use to flash grenades and what all they did clear out the demonstrators.
It was also I mean like that, so when they did that they assaulted they manhandled some Forgive me for using like a very sexist kind of term. But they they pushed around some reporters from other countries. And I didn’t really think of the political impact of this. But our allies like, I think there was a German maybe it was an Australian news group that got kind of pushed around and like that creates some pretty significant political tensions. When you run around and you push their news reporters, you know, first amendment freedom of speech, freedom of the press, like that kind of thing. Don’t we espouse to have that be one of our mantras? Well,
yes. Beyond that, we need to remember how we feel when when this happens to an American journalist.
Yeah, but should we would be a little po about that one,
and that sometimes we struggle with what, what, how, how we react differently, when an example would be when an American is being held captive, arrested without due process or what we would consider due process. The president or the State Department. You should not depress that directly, though. Occasionally it is but usually the State Department context nation at asked for intervention and they go to the upper levels of the government. When that happens in the reverse. What happens here in the United States when you when you contact the State Department, or if you had the President’s number and it’s not singled out for Trump, it would be any president. The President always defers and says, well, it’s a state matter, you know, to Texas, I mean, to have a death penalty in Texas on its state law, there’s nothing I can do. I can’t commit to a sentence. But we get very angry if the leaders of other countries are not able to intervene to our satisfaction. We have a lot of struggle with with with reversing something and looking at it through the eyes of the foreign nation.
I let’s see here. So then we have a couple articles kind of sent around a similar theme officers charts and George Floyd’s death, not likely to present a united front. This is from the New York Times that I think it is pretty typical in our past that there’s I think it’s called the blue wall where you can’t get any information to officers, they lock arms together and they they present a united front of supporting their own and I think one of the officers in this thing is already like trying to, to cut a deal and sell out his co workers there. And all that this a Larry, these guys are gonna get convicted?
Well, they’re the best yet to be determined.
I will I will bet you money right here like you’ve had money invested for the last 350 years. So you got a truckload of money in the bank. I will bet you one penny that these guys get convicted.
When you say these guys, are you talking about the children? Are you talking about?
Yes, yes, him and his little is to go ahead.
Unknown Speaker 1:17:44
Christian. I do. I do agree with you, Andy. I do agree with Andy and I think it’s gonna be very difficult. And Larry, you may agree with this too. How are you going to have a fair trial on the state of Minnesota especially in the cities when probably a majority of the people People have came out and expressed concern about the police force. I don’t know how he’s going to get a fair trial. And this whole matter, I don’t so I think he will be convicted or whether he please and cuts it down as a shorter sentence.
It would be it would be hard to offer Sovan any type of plea now you can offer these other four man a plea because they were not the the primary responsibility doesn’t lie with them. They were he was their training officer. According to the article, at least two of them were in training. And and he had seniority over over all of them. But it says he was a 19 year veteran. But I think a fair trial is going to be a very difficult thing to do and he’s entitled to that we have to want him. We have to be as adamant about him having a fair trial as we are about anybody. We do not want this to be overturned on appeal because of not being a fair trial. We want him to get the process that all of us would expect. They sent ,000 bond on these four officers. And this will probably get me some hate mail. But I think that bond is over the top. I don’t know if they’re going to be able to post it, if they have posted it, those four, but that is an excess of about a bond for people who do not pose any reasonable flight risk. The purpose of a bond for a cash bond is to have a sufficient incentive for the person to participate. And a sufficient incentive would be far less than 750,000. And they didn’t, they didn’t commit a violent crime, they witnessed a violent crime and it’s questionable what they could have done to prevent that. That’s all to be sorted. But but i think that i think that is an excessive amount to require. And they should be able to have a reasonable bail, just like we would want if we were charged with a crime, right?
We would definitely want that. So then another article from the New York Times, this one is just dated A handful of days ago says another man who said I can’t breathe died in custody and autopsy constant homicide says Manuel Ellis of Tacoma Washington died in part as a result of how he was restrained. According to the medical examiner who concluded that his death was a homicide. I suspect that this is going to be the continuing trend that the choke holds the Eric gardeners the random deaths while you’re riding in a police van from point A to point B with you know, with like, I think he had a broken back I think that’s what the Baltimore one was like, this stuff is all going to be put under the light Larry, like I It is my opinion that this has definitely hit a tipping point that this is not gonna continue to happen. Well, Teresa says that’s pretty great.
The the Minneapolis has already taken Christian can chime in here but they’ve already they’ve already taken some steps in terms of requiring that these holes stop being used and that people doing this be reporting that but I don’t understand. I’d say about 30 years ago I may be able to my ears but The animal control for our city they used to use that for cats, they would they had these, I don’t know that what they were called. But these, when they were catching Australia, they would reach the head, the noose around. And then if you’re catching a feral cat, the feral cats not gonna be the least bit cooperate, they would pick those cats up by the neck. And that cat would eventually go out because of no oxygen. And that’s how they were able to put the frail cat in the cage to take them to animal control. And we were able to decide 25 to 30 years ago, that you can’t do that because it harms the cat and cats died. And cats were Okay, so 30 years later, we’re having this discussion about not choking human beings to death. Am I missing something?
I do not believe so. In the interest of time, and I want to cover one or If if you’re okay with us, skipping to the end of the roster, and it’s this one movement to defund police gains unprecedented support across the US. And I heard this on some other publications where I want to say it’s in Los Angeles, that they Yeah, it’s the police budget is .8 billion. And instead of them getting a 7% increase, there’s going to be a small decrease in their budget. And this seems to be a trend, something that you have said on the podcast before of like, we have a militarized police department and we should be the ones that restrained their tools and stop giving them so much money to do all these things. And I just wanted to get your feedback on this.
Unknown Speaker 1:22:40
Well, it’s the only tool we have and when the public realizes that for and I’ll make the analogy with attorney general office, the Attorney General, each state has an attorney general. One thing that we learned is advocates and this movement. SAP Attorney General of the Michigan you pick your state, Arkansas They appeal everything. You remember we talked about rebars. it? Was it last week, the week before? It was they have announced exactly I predicted they would appeal they have to appeal and they are appealing the decision. Well, if we don’t want them appealing everything, which is what they do, and fighting everything to so Dale, since there’s no one in any office in anywhere in the state of North Carolina that can order the Attorney General to do anything. The only tool that the legislature of North Carolina has and the people have indirectly through their legislators is to cut the funding. So if they have an office of 500, and they have the resources to appeal everything, one way you would stop them from being able to appeal everything would be to reduce the number of people they have, which would cause them to have to choose on appealing everything. Well, the same thing goes with the police. We’re not talking about totally different The police, no one is talking about that. What we’re talking about is that over the last 25 years as crime has declined, the police have enjoyed a steadily increasing budget, when actually budgets should have been going down to represent the need for fewer of them because there weren’t as many things to investigate. The only tool we have is to say, if you don’t like the fact that police I mean, I mean, it those of us have been advocates for a number of years, we’ve heard about all these ridiculous cases that they’ve brought, you know, we’ve talked about on the podcast of cases that you couldn’t imagine that they have time to do that they bring these cases. And they break these cases because they have the resources to do so. Since you can’t give a sheriff an order not to do something. The only thing you can do is they will share if you’ve got resources to bring all these dubious cases, we’re going to curtail your actions. tivities by having fewer funds available, well, the sheriff isn’t going to like that. So what they’re going to do is exactly what the counselor in Minnesota did. They’re going to retaliate by saying, okay, we’re going to back off on things you want enforced, or we’re going to come down hard on other things, to teach the public a lesson. And that’s what they’re going to do. They know, they know no other playbook. That’s all they can do. We’re gonna, we’re gonna have to stand firm. And we’re gonna have to say, Sorry, folks, we’re in a budget crisis, revenues are down, you’re going to have to tighten your belt and you’re gonna have to deal with lists. This is a this pandemic is a perfect opportunity to do something you could never do in regular circumstances. You could never talk about actually cutting the police department’s budget. Prior to this pandemic, you could talk about possibly giving them a slower increase like Councillor Fletcher was talking about, but now we can actually have a discussion because I get to look you as a taxpayer say, Well, our revenues are down 30% because of the pandemic Would you like to have Have a tax increase so that we can get the revenue flow back up to where it was so that we don’t have to cut anything. Of course you know what the answer that is nobody wants to tax increase. Okay, so Okay, now, since the police make up 50% of the budget now this is true across the country, not just in Minneapolis, since law enforcement gets the lion’s share of local funding. How could we cut 30% of the city or County’s budget? If we have to take 50% of it out of the equation? What with 30%? of 50% you mathematician stick it out? If I had if I had to cut spending 30%. And I could only look at 50% to cut the 30% what would the cut be to the remaining programs?
Unknown Speaker 1:26:37
It would be a lot I want to say it’s like an 80% range.
So so that’s that’s what that’s what we’re up against here. And I’ve been gone so long, Kristen. What what what is what is your take? We’ve lost him again. Larry, can you repeat that? I said what is your take? I didn’t mean to go on so long. So what’s your take about the No, no, no, I
Unknown Speaker 1:26:57
think that you have a good point and
Unknown Speaker 1:27:01
It’s a lot of a lot of things that are just going through my mind right now with this with what you said and I’m, I had to work so well with the state I had to do some traffic control and roadblocks during this time and it was brutal watching some of this whole so I kind of I kind of wanted to just stay back whether anything was politically motivated or if race was an issue and you know, so forth. But yeah,
sir, anything else that we want to hit before we get out of here?
Christians any of the articles there that we didn’t cover that you wanted to cover? I know we’ve got the warrant. I wanted to say something about debris. Briana Taylor, that the the danger of doing what they did come to find out is more and more facts are not about that no knock warrant. Is that they the police chief likely lost His job he was going to retire but they would had fired him.
Unknown Speaker 1:28:03
But but the there was no particularized nothing in the application for no more was particularized to this particular person. They said in their application, that that drugs that people who wrote drugs are notorious able to dispose of them prior to the search, but the person they were looking for the gloves. He didn’t even live there. He had received a package according to the Postal Inspector, that but but then there was a question of the Postal Inspectors if we didn’t say that point I’m making is that if you pound on somebody’s door late at night, and her boyfriend had a permit to carry a weapon, and you don’t announce yourself as the police, what do you think is going to happen? When you think someone’s breaking in your house? That’s the whole reason why we’re so irritated at Cobb County. If you’re going to knock at people’s doors late at night, pounding with the police knock If you don’t say police force, I would not want them same place at 1130 at night. But it’s only a recipe for bad things to happen. You can’t do that, folks, this woman died because the police were lazy. They use boilerplate language. The courts were lazy, they didn’t review the warrant carefully the application, a judge, a good judge would have said I just read this. There’s nothing particular about this, about this, where you’ve said there’s any reason that you have particular to this suspect that would allow me to grant this no warrant denied. But see, if you do that, if you’re in a state where the police have the power to go out and campaign against you, in the states where you have to run this for a judge, what would happen if you did that, on a routine basis to the police, you would all of a sudden find your judicial career coming to an end because you you’re denying the police the opportunity to do their job, and you’re you’re siding with the criminals. So that’s why judges are hesitant to say no to the police, particularly if they have to face the wrath of angry voters.
Let’s Christian, is there anything that you want to hit before we
Unknown Speaker 1:30:02
do? I want to say two things really quick on this one. I wish they had a lot more but we’ll see on that 77 year old retired police officer in St. Louis that got beat up by the thugs that that should had more publicity and to about five, six years ago, among family, Minneapolis police executed a warrant wrong house at among very little English did shoot one of the officers as it was coming in. He was he wasn’t charged. The Hennepin County prosecution our prosecutors decided not to charge them so more to share that.
When you say the seven seven to retarget beat about the thugs what thugs
Unknown Speaker 1:30:44
this was a police officer Larry 77 to 38 years in the St. Louis department Missouri. Volunteering and during this writing he two thugs did beat them up and kill them. made very, very little news and I was really shocked about that.
Unknown Speaker 1:31:02
Well, but aren’t the thugs being prosecuted? Have they not apprehended? I haven’t heard the story. But what?
Unknown Speaker 1:31:07
Yes, Yes, they did. They did. Random. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 1:31:10
But see, but see, that’s the whole that’s the whole point. people miss. The reason why you don’t hear a lot about something like that, and it’s tragic and it’s unfortunate, but they had been brought to justice, they are facing criminal charges. What we’re angry about with these things is the police never get brought before the courts and when they do, they’re found not guilty. There’s no accountability. Those people will be held accountable and and hopefully if they have innocence there, they’ll be convicted. But but it’s it’s in the case of police misconduct. You can barely get a prosecutor to bring a case because they know what the what’s going to be the outcome they know that that they’re not likely to gain a conviction. They know that they’re going to have the whole Police Department turn on them and they know all the retaliate ation they’re facing our district attorney here in bernalillo. County when she charged the the cops in the death of the one cop in the death of James Boyd. She said said that she felt threatened for her life that isn’t that. Isn’t that a sad thing when you when you’re the when you’re the prosecutor or you feel threatened by the police, she said that she felt for her safety. she feared for her safety.
Christian thing for Coco Please go ahead.
Unknown Speaker 1:32:16
Oh, no, no, I was I was going to agree with Larry. Absolutely. And I’ll continue. I’m sorry. I just wanted to say I agree with Larry. So
thank you so much for joining us and I wanted to give you an opportunity to to plug Minnesota for how can they find it? How can they reach out to you because I’m sure the seven people that live in Minnesota that I’m sure all of them listen to the podcast.
Unknown Speaker 1:32:37
Well, hey, it may have shrunk here recently. So as I said before I tracked down Brenda Brenda has been wonderful and I kind of miss Brenda. She was supposed to come in in April was supposed to do a
Unknown Speaker 1:32:53
Brenda What was it called the
Unknown Speaker 1:32:57
old Cashman you’re gonna have to help me here. What was his name? She’s gonna go finish. She’s probably not but what it is guys is Minnesota for its mn fo r Gnar. Saw a yahoo.com. So again min. For M and fo r.na. saw your yahoo.com Excuse me? Yeah. Okay.
before we sign off, I want to make one correction when we got the email about the one that I pontificate about earlier, about about only because it’s black people as I was listening to something I said, I misspoke when I was talking about the 11th circuit, the Florida, Florida appealing the the judge’s decision on the voting. And I said that judges on the 11th circuit were appointed, that there was judges that the scientists had had pointed to the Florida court. We’re now on the 11th circuit appointed by Obama. I did not mean to say that. I was I was in my mind thinking Trump But as I listen to my words, I said Obama. So that was not what I intended to say.
All right, then. So Larry, we have to mark this day that you were wrong once?
Well, it probably don’t tell how many times I misspeak I just don’t hear about I don’t generally go back and listen to the podcast because it’s bad enough. I had to do it once. But I was making sure that I was in context, because we got some, some feedback that we were that we knew was taken out of context. And so I was going back to listening to make sure that I hadn’t had misspoken. And and the context the person was concerned about was just just that it was not the context of what we’re talking about it I don’t think we want to go into it into the broadcast, but it was taken out of context.
Oh, right. And then also, Brenda, Larry, you can attest to this one that there is a pretty significant webcast that NARSOL is putting on this coming weekend. And she wanted me to remind everyone, you’ll get this. Everyone will get this by Tuesday. So to remind you that NARSOL is having their annual conference, it’s being done remotely. And if you head over to nassau.org, you can find links on the page to sign up. It is not expensive, it’s 35 bucks, it’s over a couple days with pretty much all of the main speakers that we’re going to be there originally anyway. And I’ll have a link in the show notes that will get you right there, but just head over to nassau.org Nar sll.org and you can find out how to register for the program. Later, we can skip all the extra stuff, everyone knows where to go go to registry matters.co. And you can find all the show notes and links and phone numbers, all that stuff. And they they
they are so live webcast is going to be fantastic. And I totally underestimated the interest in it. We have a record number of 200 signed up already with a way to go. And I predicted that it would surprise me if we surpassed 100. When we were talking about this internally I said what the psyche of the nation be what it is and so many distractions will be Like if we have 100 people show up. Well, you know what, we’ve doubled that and we still have a week to go.
Excellent. Well, that’s all I got. Again, Christian, thank you for joining, Larry. Thank you. And hopefully you’ll make it to your appointment on time.
I think I will. And with that, I’ll go I’m wondering, I’m wondering if we should do it because we’re trying to have a little structure in our after podcast banter, and I’m not going to be able to do one today but I’d be willing to pop in tomorrow afternoon because I’m going to come to the office but we could do a little banter for folks who want to either ask a question or make a comment. But tonight unfortunately I do have to bolt out here students we sign off
well very good. Well, we’ll try and skip in the future. So so
Unknown Speaker 1:36:40
alright guys. Sure you guys appreciate you having me on and Larry’s
Unknown Speaker 1:36:45
see how to your fiance for me. So
good night everybody. Thank you for thanks, everybody in chat and thank you for keeping the company and keeping it interesting. And with that, I bid everybody I do have a great night. Sure.